Am I Trans or Bi?

[ScottishMike]

What kind of simmer am I? I ask this question as I am caught between the excitement and frustration of learning a new sim after 19 years with FS9 (and all the earlier Microsoft simulators before that. I still have a subLOGIC ring binder with Instrument Pilot's Scenery East U.S. The plates are still useful and shipped on 3 ½ inch disks for IBM/Compatibles for Version 3 and above. They probably never thought 3 ½ diskettes would become obsolete ;-)). Enough of the past.

The trials and misconceptions around the decision to purchase Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 (in future I'll call it FS20 for brevity) are covered in an earlier post.

Well, after help from the folk on this forum, FS20 is purchased and installed.

So am I transitioning to FS20 or sticking with FS9, or using both?

I thought I'd fly a similar circuit in a similar aircraft in both FS9 and FS20 noting my thoughts.

I was not sure if the post belonged in the FS9 (FS2004) or the MSFS2020 sections. For selfish reasons I decided on the MSFS2020 forum, many would be able to help me with aspects of the FS20 I am having difficulties or annoyances with.

I was island hopping in the Caribbean in FS9 when I decided to install FS20, so the circuit to fly is TFFM Marie-Galante (a smallish French island off Guadeloupe) the Rwy is 3700' in FS9, slightly longer in FS20. The aircraft I chose is the default Robin400 in FS20 and a nice freeware model in FS9.

Interestingly a four seater in FS9 and two seater in FS20:

Above FS20

Very nice in FS20 but not so bad in FS9 and the canopy opens in the FS9 model. Do any of the G.A. Aircraft in FS20 have opening doors or other enhancements?

A cold and dark start. Above FS20, below FS9

In FS20 they seem to have taken the “Dark” term literally. This is 9:30 AM in the Caribbean on a clear sunny day yet many switches in the cockpit are so dark as to be invisible. I have never been a fan of virtual cockpits in FS9 (usually to see all the controls one seemed to be sitting in the luggage compartment). Instruments are designed to give information to the pilot, if unreadable, they might as well not be there

Slightly better with illumination switched on, although the outside light switches are still invisible.

The panel in FS9 is a bit more “toy” like, but much more readable and all required instruments and controls are available in the same screen.

 

Take off and pointing towards Dominica. The FS9 model has both the spot plane and GPS windows open. What happened to the GPS in FS20? Maybe I just haven't found it yet. The spot plane window allows me to see the aircraft in flight, this helps me see how the plane is oriented but also allows me the pleasure of watching the aircraft. I flght sim because I love aircraft; seeing them in all stages of flight is part of that appreciation. So far the only way I have found in FS20 is sitting strapped into that imaginary seat 20' behind the rudder using a reduced set of instruments (they are clear though!).

 

Heading downwind, but spoiling the circuit by pointing at the airport, a comparison of what the airport and island look like in both sims. The scenery just looks so much better in FS20. In FS9 the weather has turned (I have a program that downloads real weather) I saw that option in FS20 and turned it on. It made no difference (could be the real weather was clear and sunny) or it's a pay option.

 

 

Now on final:

 

 

Touch down

 

Bear in mind this was never going to be a fair comparison, I have been using FS9 for 19 years and know it like the back of my hand. I have only been playing FS20 for a few days, but it is so damn pretty it's difficult to resist.

The flight model is, I think, a bit more realistic in FS20 based on my experience of the Cessna 150 and 152 Aerobats I flew when studying for my private pilot's licence and the FS9 and FS20 150s.

Interestingly when I first tried FS20 I thought I best try it set to easy, MISTAKE, it was like having a demented 10year old in the cockpit pushing throttle and other controls at random. I set everything to hard and it works much better.

Thanks for reading this; any comments welcome.

[Nels_Anderson]

It's nice to see someone taking the time to do a fair comparison of the sims, thanks for sharing.

[Rupert]

Well done indeed!  There are advantages to each simfor sure.  Having said that, though the new one has better graphics I still prefer the older versions. 

[steveboston]

Thanks for a very good post. I also still have FS9 and occasionally fly with it. I had so many add-ons plus my own "improved" panels, sounds flight dynamics so I didn't want to just discard it - lots of extra aircraft too. Its still good - OK the scenery is all generic but not bad and we are mostly busy flying So it flies on with my old gaming laptop while 2020 is on my purpose-bought desktop. Nice to be able to explore with 2020 though and I spent UK Coronavirus lockdown not being locked down - I investigated many places the world over.

Fs 2020 does always seem to start under a cloud - even if only 3 Octas are up there! I have Track I/R so can look around/lean into instruments & controls but yes the panels were more easily read on 9. As with 9 I always set controls to maximum sensitivity, minimum deadband and most realistic. Paradoxically (my new favourite word) it makes all flying easier and I say its a must for helicopters. I only usually lean on stick and rudder rather than having to make big movements.

You will find crucial differences: most of MSFS is out there - not on your PC including preferences and control settings. Graphics settings need trial and error of course but I find easier than with FS9. My rig was reccomended 2 years ago but is humble now. It will run all on ultra but I choose High (and turn off  motion blur which seems a crazy thing). labels from POI etc can be turned off (assistance menu) as can all piloting assists (I leave co-pilot with ATC which is still terrible). Too many trees I reckon - still the "microsoft tree" present at many thresholds !! .(After a long struggle I made better scenery (for Portmoak Gliding field in Central Scotland - freeware here!) and I think I know why. I noticed it puts trees over what it thinks are trees (sometimes just bushes) but it also puts them over any shadows from trees. (It uses Bing maps - satellite view, not Google of course, so not quite as good. Then it guesses buildings with a decent (now) set of types to choose from and in other places: photogrammetry which is actual 3d sketchup like Google's 3d/streetview but again not so good.

A great improvement is of course multiplayer/real world flights around us on several servers and, with Discord, speaking to ppl and having group flights or fly-ins.

Oh and if you miss shift-Z see either here or flightsim.to and get "shift-Z stats", place in the community folder and enjoy.

Happy flying (and if you get on Discord look for me (Gromit) (plus #1065 in the sim) . I have figured out most stuff and am always happy to help.

[ScottishMike]

Firstly thanks to steveboston, Rupert and Nels_Anderson for the comprehensive replies

The answer to my own question after three months is: I have gravitated back to FS9.

There are several reasons. One is my love of watching my aircraft in flight, this is possible through the spotter window in FS9, MSFS2020 could have been even better but the external camera view cannot be opened in a separate window; why? The only way to control the plane and see it in flight is that dicky seat at the back of the rudder.

Secondly the cockpit instruments are difficult to see without panning around the cockpit (when they are not so dark as to be invisible), meaning one has to set up multiple short cuts to pre set views or invest in a VR headset. The last thing you want when on short final is trying to remember which key combination will show the required lever or gauge, oops too late you've hit the tree short of the runway!

The third disappointment was the disappearance of the GPS; the MSFS2020 VFR map is a poor substitute (at least it can be opened in a window) for the FS9 GPS or the FS9 Map.

The fourth is the investment in aircraft and scenery built up over 19 years of using FS9 now with over 2000+ aircraft and 1800+ add-on sceneries. This is not a fault of MSFS2020 but an inevitable result of any new software having to compete with older well established and stable software.

[Barkingside]

Re views, I am sure that given time software akin to Active Camera for FS9 or Chase Plane or EZdoc\k for FSX may become available. Although FS2020 is approaching 3 years old and the whole genre of flight sims seems to be on the wane. I base this on the traffic in the various main forums. I don't sim myself anymore, I just cannot find the time though I do check in periodically to see the state of play. FS.com e.g. is just a pain to navigate compared to what went before. But that is just my opinion/feeling.  

[PhrogPhlyer]

I find this thread to further highlight the crossroads I find myself at, whether or not to purchase MSFS 2020.

I use FSX and have even reconsidered reinstalling FS9 to fly some of the aircraft that are only available there.

The ground visuals and enhanced aircraft details of MSFS 2020 make a strong case, but with so many threads discussing updates and memory requirements, it is a difficult decision.

Perhaps waiting for MSFS 2024 (not that far away) is the best for me.

It is a shame that we must lose so much to gain one thing, visible details.

I am sure I will purchase, but at this moment, not quite yet.

[loki]

45 minutes ago, Barkingside said:

Although FS2020 is approaching 3 years old and the whole genre of flight sims seems to be on the wane. I base this on the traffic in the various main forums.

I'm not sure it's waning at all, however, much of the online traffic for MSFS2020 isn't happening here, unfortunately. There are the official MS/Asobo forums, as well as a number of social media based communities, such as on Reddit. On the other hand, there is still plenty of interest in the older sims too.

[loki]

20 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

It is a shame that we must lose so much to gain one thing, visible details.

It is a shame, and highlights one of the big questions with applications like the MSFS series. At what point do you drop backwards compatibility to move forward? FSX basically hit the wall with increasing the level of detail available in the sim combined with the underlying hardware platforms. Something had to change eventually to bring the sims to modern hardware, alongside allowing for the increased functionality (like an improved flight model) and graphics many like.

[Rupert]

25 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

I find this thread to further highlight the crossroads I find myself at, whether or not to purchase MSFS 2020.

I use FSX and have even reconsidered reinstalling FS9 to fly some of the aircraft that are only available there.

The ground visuals and enhanced aircraft details of MSFS 2020 make a strong case, but with so many threads discussing updates and memory requirements, it is a difficult decision.

Perhaps waiting for MSFS 2024 (not that far away) is the best for me.

It is a shame that we must lose so much to gain one thing, visible details.

I am sure I will purchase, but at this moment, not quite yet.

Another issue you need to be aware of.  MSFS uses an entirely different format for flight inputs such as raising and lowering gear, flaps, etc..  If you've used FSX, FS9, P3D, etc. none of the inputs are the same as those for MSFS.  I'm assuming that's to put it on the XBOX format.  The first time I tried to fly MSFS I was totally befuddled so I looked up and printed out their controls listings. I still haven't managed to get most of the presets I've used with my yoke or joystick to work.

 

But then again having only one view at a time, again so people can play with XBox,  I've not bothered for sometime as I like having three views to simulate looking out  RW in a plane.

 

I feel I wasted my money on MSFS and won't fool with any XBox stuff again.

[loki]

39 minutes ago, Rupert said:

Another issue you need to be aware of.  MSFS uses an entirely different format for flight inputs such as raising and lowering gear, flaps, etc..  If you've used FSX, FS9, P3D, etc. none of the inputs are the same as those for MSFS.  I'm assuming that's to put it on the XBOX format.  The first time I tried to fly MSFS I was totally befuddled so I looked up and printed out their controls listings. I still haven't managed to get most of the presets I've used with my yoke or joystick to work.

That was a choice by Asobo and had little to do with being ported to the Xbox console. They could have mapped things the same way, but a different development team made some different choices (for better or worse). A better way to look at MSFS2020 is that it is a new and different sim, rather than a direct continuation of the previous entries in the series. Much more like moving from FSX to X-Plane rather than FS2004 to FSX.

 

Quote

But then again having only one view at a time, again so people can play with XBox,  I've not bothered for sometime as I like having three views to simulate looking out  RW in a plane.

They have been adding in better support for multiple monitors.

 

 

[Nels_Anderson]

Just to mention, the GPS and other instruments can sometimes be undocked, but which ones is specific to each individual aircraft. On the Carenado Piper Archer I fly the Garmin GPS can be undocked and moved to another monitor. On the default Guimbal Cabri helicopter I often fly their custom GPS can be undocked and moved to another monitor. On other planes other parts of the panel can be undocked, though sometimes the available choices don't make much sense.

[jgf]

4 hours ago, loki said:

it is a new and different sim, rather than a direct continuation of the previous entries in the series. Much more like moving from FSX to X-Plane rather than FS2004 to FSX.

 

But still from Micro$oft.  This is like saying Ford will now build Corvettes.

 

Progress does not necessarily equate to improvement. 

[jgf]

6 hours ago, Barkingside said:

software akin to Active Camera for FS9 or Chase Plane or EZdoc\k for FSX may become available

 

At a fee of course.

[Nels_Anderson]

12 hours ago, jgf said:

But still from Micro$oft.  This is like saying Ford will now build Corvettes.

 

Progress does not necessarily equate to improvement. 

 

"Still from Microsoft"...well in way, Microsoft is the publisher, but FSX might be called "ACES Flight Simulator" while MSFS 2020 might be called "Asobo Flight Simulator". Using the publisher's name instead ("Microsoft") probably makes them easier to sell but they are different sims from different teams. Not to mention that they date almost 20 years apart, and how software is made and sold has changed a lot in that time.

 

The way companies are always merging don't think it impossible that Ford might someday build Corvettes! I bet you could also get a good argument going among car fans as to whether the latest mid-engine Corvette is still really a Corvette or not...some might even mention something about how progress does not necessarily equate to improvement

[jgf]

5 hours ago, Nels_Anderson said:

Ford might someday build Corvettes

 

Lol, some years ago when some of my friends were touting "buy American" I pointed out I had a Ford truck, the body and chassis were made by Mazda, the suspension by a French company, the engine and gearbox from a Brazilian company, assembled in Mexico, sold in the US.  Was it American?

[PhrogPhlyer]

4 minutes ago, jgf said:

buy American

There is a distinct difference in contracts that say "buy American" vs. "buy America."

American = North American (Mexico, United States, Canada)

America = United States

A political loophole that sounds good and allows to buy outside of the USA.

[Rupert]

On 9/15/2023 at 3:51 PM, Nels_Anderson said:

Just to mention, the GPS and other instruments can sometimes be undocked, but which ones is specific to each individual aircraft. On the Carenado Piper Archer I fly the Garmin GPS can be undocked and moved to another monitor. On the default Guimbal Cabri helicopter I often fly their custom GPS can be undocked and moved to another monitor. On other planes other parts of the panel can be undocked, though sometimes the available choices don't make much sense.

I think you are missing my point.  With the older sims I can select cockpit mode and see out the directly front on my center screen. I can also select cockpit mode on either other scree and make it side facing like looking out the left pilot's window on my left screen, and also do the same thing looking right and out the right side on my right screen.  Similar to what we see RW while a pilot or while inside a car or truck.  So in short I have an almost full 3 horizon view using three monitors all the time just by moving my eyes.  Like we all have RW.

 

We're not talking about little functions like an undocked GPS, etc., we're talking about how it looks from inside the cockpit of a RW aircraft or the driver's seat of a real car. (Almost three dimensional). Plus, if I choose I can also "undock" a GPS, radio panel, or other function and place it on a small section of whichever screen I choose as well which only takes up a small portion of either screen and doesn't affect their overall continuous view.    The three screens without scrolling don't give you a full 180* view.  But they are probably as close to what you can see by moving your eyes without turning your head while in the cockpit.  Speaking of turning your head.  If you want to look far left or right just select the side screen in the direction you want to look then scroll that screen only towards the outside.  This is like turning your head except you still have the full straight ahead view on one monitor and the untouched side view on the untouched side monitor.

[Buck Turgidson]

9 hours ago, Rupert said:

I think you are missing my point.  With the older sims I can select cockpit mode and see out the directly front on my center screen.

 

I had several problems with 2020.  In the end, each one pushed me in a different direction that ultimately improved my experience.

• I hated the lack of multi monitor because I couldn't put the dash on a screen for instrument flight - which made me use glass cockpit I initially hated but ultimately gave me far more situational awareness after learning to use it.
• I hated the fact I had to reprogram the the controls - but this forced me to rethink how to optimize the controls for most aircraft, ultimately simplifying and standardizing my controls.
• I hated the lack of tower view - until SkyDolly came out and blew away any of the older methods.  Now I can replay any part of a recorded flight from any view point in the craft, outside or from any point within the visible flight path!  AND it gave me the ability to fly formation!  This doubled the value of the sim for me.
• And then I got HMD!  Holy feces, this is the greatest thing since sim was invented.  Forget about looking at three flat panels, you are in the cockpit with full 3D effect!  I did a liftoff from a skyscraper in Denver yesterday and had that rush of  depth while looking down!  I flew from Crusted Butt to Aspen and the feel of the valley depth was there.  I just flew a flight of two L39 in NZ and it was staggering. 

Adapt, improvise, overcome.  If you are driving buses with no visibility outside, running instrument approaches and mostly on autopilot, FSX and I'm sure FS9 are plenty good enough to enjoy flight.  If you are running IFR (I Fly Roadways) with cubs and helos at treetop and running honest to god visual flight with no maps, MFFS is it - but only if your data link can handle it.  My Starlink sometimes can't keep up so you get FSX quality and I stop flying.

[Buck Turgidson]

12 hours ago, jgf said:

 

Lol, some years ago when some of my friends were touting "buy American" I pointed out I had a Ford truck, the body and chassis were made by Mazda, the suspension by a French company, the engine and gearbox from a Brazilian company, assembled in Mexico, sold in the US.  Was it American?

Ha! My wife Jeep is made in India.

[chicagorandy]

3 hours ago, Buck Turgidson said:

Ha! My wife Jeep is made in India.

And my Hyundai Tucson is made in Alabama.

[PhrogPhlyer]

6 hours ago, Buck Turgidson said:

but only if your data link can handle it.  My Starlink sometimes can't keep up so you get FSX quality and I stop flying.

Since I'm have not purchased 2020 as of yet, please explain. Other threads state that modem speed is not an issue, only memory.

Thanks.

[loki]

52 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

Since I'm have not purchased 2020 as of yet, please explain. Other threads state that modem speed is not an issue, only memory.

Thanks.

I suspect quality of the Starlink connection was the issue rather than speed. My connection was only 50 Mbps when I first got the sim, and never had trouble with it.

[tiger1962]

1 hour ago, loki said:

I suspect quality of the Starlink connection was the issue rather than speed. My connection was only 50 Mbps when I first got the sim, and never had trouble with it.

 

+1 - I have a 65mbps service and I've only had an "offline mode" error 5 or 6 times in 3 years - I think it was because the bandwidth went below 30mbps. Re-booting the router fixed the issue every time.

As a matter of interest, I think the MSFS offline scenery looks like the Orbx FSX scenery, it's pretty good - but not a patch on the online photoscenery we're taking for granted now.

[loki]

41 minutes ago, tiger1962 said:

 

+1 - I have a 65mbps service and I've only had an "offline mode" error 5 or 6 times in 3 years - I think it was because the bandwidth went below 30mbps. Re-booting the router fixed the issue every time.

As a matter of interest, I think the MSFS offline scenery looks like the Orbx FSX scenery, it's pretty good - but not a patch on the online photoscenery we're taking for granted now.

I would still put that down as a connection quality issue more than speed specifically. If your connection dropped to less than half the max speed, there is likely something else going, such as the router getting hung up for some reason. The recommended bandwidth speed is 20 Mbps, with 50 Mbps being the ideal. Another factor is how many other people in the house are using the internet at the same time. The more computers and other devices using bandwidth, the faster the connection you will need.