alaskancrab Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If it is false advertising, take them to court and force them to either supply the SDK or to clarify EXACTLY what is being sold. And we wonder why there are so many disclaimers and legalspeak on everything. Yup take them to court and they'll be responsible for $0.00 the value of the SDK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Robinson Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If it is false advertising, take them to court and force them to either supply the SDK or to clarify EXACTLY what is being sold. And we wonder why there are so many disclaimers and legalspeak on everything. Best post in the thread right there, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If it is false advertising, take them to court and force them to either supply the SDK or to clarify EXACTLY what is being sold. And we wonder why there are so many disclaimers and legalspeak on everything. NO!! We have way too many suits going on everyday! And of course anytime an attorney is involved, the gauntlet is certainly thrown down. I think even threatening in any manner would be a big mistake. However members of this forum are active and involved simmers. Which means we are potential customers. I'd be very interested in many of us writing or emailing them and asking them to add the feature. That would make their product even more worth our purchase money. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvarn Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 "those wishing to partake in the developer community (or even tweak a few items for our own requirements) will be unable to do so unless they already own the original boxed version." Nonsense. You can download the SDK documentation for free from the MS website and elsewhere. You can install their program tools, or use your own editors and programming languages (XML, LUA, etc.) to implement FSX boxed features on planes, scenery, AI, etc. and use those features, plane, scenery, AI, missions in FSX:SE. The only reason I can see to complain is if you're never programmed with SDK features or tried to implement simconnect values yourself. If you did, you'd realize these things don't require you have the boxed disks to use them. -Pv- 2 carrot salad, 10.41 liter bucket, electric doorbell, 17 inch fan, 12X14, 85 Dbm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 "those wishing to partake in the developer community (or even tweak a few items for our own requirements) will be unable to do so unless they already own the original boxed version." Nonsense. You can download the SDK documentation for free from the MS website and elsewhere. You can install their program tools, or use your own editors and programming languages (XML, LUA, etc.) to implement FSX boxed features on planes, scenery, AI, etc. and use those features, plane, scenery, AI, missions in FSX:SE. The only reason I can see to complain is if you're never programmed with SDK features or tried to implement simconnect values yourself. If you did, you'd realize these things don't require you have the boxed disks to use them. -Pv- Excellent. Exactly what I wanted to say but you said it much better. :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Mickey D Team SDB Scenery Bloke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n4gix Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 You can download the SDK documentation for free from the MS website and elsewhere. You can install their program tools... That is factually incorrect. The prerequisite FSX-RTM SDK file is named: fsx deluxe edition sdk.exe It may be found only on FSX-Deluxe Disk #1. None of the downloadable SDKs may be installed without this one being installed first! Yes, there are alternatives that may be persued by anyone who is truly persistent, but that's not really the point in this discussion. This one executable file is present on every boxed edition of FSX-Deluxe and FSX-Gold ever sold. Dovetail Games has advertised that they are selling a downloadable version of "FSX-Gold" via the Steam portal. The very absence of this one file (or it's pre-extracted equivalent in the ..\sdk folder) is the issue. Bill Leaming http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Combat/0054.gif Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Military Visualizations Flightsim.com Panels & Gauges Forum Moderator Flightsim Rig: Intel Core i7-2600K - 8GB DDR3 1333 - EVGA GTX770 4GB - Win7 64bit Home Premium Development Rig1: Intel Core i7-3770k - 16GB DDR3 - Dual Radeon HD7770 SLI 1GB - Win7 64bit Professional Development Rig2: Intel Core i7-860 - 8GB DDR3 Corsair - GeForce GTS240 1GB - Win7 64bit Home Premium NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvarn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "Microsoft remains the developer of FSX and is solely responsible for implementation of any features or content." "Microsoft has now issued us with clarification on this matter. FSX: Steam Edition does not include a developer SDK" You can still "develop" content for FSX without this "sdk.exe" and since Microsoft is the controlling factor and owner, they are the ones responsible for any content provided or omitted, not Dovetail. There are people right at this moment coding add-ons for FSX boxed and FSX:SE who are not relying on the contents of this package to perform the work. Suggesting some kind of litigation toward Dovetail or Steam on this issue is irresponsible, misdirected, and ultimately destructive to the FS community. Put your money where your mouth is and I'll be expecting some kind of article on the business news about how Microsoft has no comment on pending litigation. -Pv- 2 carrot salad, 10.41 liter bucket, electric doorbell, 17 inch fan, 12X14, 85 Dbm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvieno Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Has anyone contacted DTG and asked them to change the description of what they are selling or is this just a bunch of belly aching over nothing no one here has any control over? http://my.flightmemory.com/pic/tvieno.gifhttp://www.vatsimsigs.co.uk/Status/1136602.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmann Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Has anyone contacted DTG and asked them to change the description of what they are selling If you follow the first link in the first post by the OP you will find out that indeed DTG has been notified. As to whether DTG will own up to changing the description to match what you actually get, I can't say. Mike Mann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxsttcb Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 ...Sorry to say but 3rd Party Developers have 0 (zero) rights and a lot less privileges than regular customers. Let's not forget that developing something for somebody else platform is still a GAMBLE and a very risky one nonetheless...It seems as though Microsoft used to have a different viewpoint: http://www.microsoft.com/Products/Games/FSInsider/developers/Pages/default.aspx "As Extensible As It Gets" The success of the Flight Simulator franchise is due in large part to the efforts of our third-party development community. Those efforts are made possible by our commitment to "extensibility." The main idea behind this concept is to provide customers with the power to customize their experiences. Over our 25-year history the names and faces on our team have changed, but our dedication to this concept has remained. Gotta wonder what changed their mind. ...Don HAF 932 Adv, PC P&C 950w, ASUS R4E,i7-3820 5.0GHz(MCR320-XP 6 fans wet), GTX 970 FTW 16GB DDR3-2400, 128GB SAMSUNG 830(Win 7 Ult x64), 512GB SAMSUNG 840 Pro(FSX P3D FS9) WD 1TB Black(FS98, CFS2&3, ROF, etc.), WD 2TB Black-(Storage/Backup) Active Sky Next, Rex4 TD/Soft Clouds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mabe5454 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Has anyone contacted DTG and asked them to change the description of what they are selling or is this just a bunch of belly aching over nothing no one here has any control over? No, have you? It looks like you should lead the way... Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrzippy Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 No, have you? It looks like you should lead the way... Cheers, Here's the CONTACT link. I've sent them one and no reply yet. http://www.dovetailgames.com/contact Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringBean Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 You can still "develop" content for FSX without this "sdk.exe"... Really? How do you create an FSX native airplane without the SDK? WWOD---What Would Opa Do? Farewell, my freind (sp) Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mabe5454 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "As Extensible As It Gets" The success of the Flight Simulator franchise is due in large part to the efforts of our third-party development community. Those efforts are made possible by our commitment to "extensibility." The main idea behind this concept is to provide customers with the power to customize their experiences. Over our 25-year history the names and faces on our team have changed, but our dedication to this concept has remained. Gotta wonder what changed their mind. ...Don I think when FSX was first sold the original idea in MS was that the CPU clocks were supposed to keep getting faster and faster. Remember Intel Larrabee projet? They found out Moore's Law had just suffered a stroke and tried to fight it. But it wouldn't be that easy. Two SP's and one Acceleration later MS so the writing on the wall. Abandon ship, as in NOW!. And here we are, still stock in same old, same old Time ticking. I wouldn't be at all surprised that if and when the CPU clock start climbing up/creeping up again to see the Phoenix (MS) raise again and retaking what's theirs ultimately. Side note: MSFS has two identities, the bad one (IMHO) as a game and the good one as a simulator. The former is a MS lousy idea thinking that the whole hoopla of the franchise was about gaming so they wrapped silliness everywhere and all around it which in reality were in our way to happiness. The latter was Bruce Artwick original idea which always have prevailed and we all love. Remember "Flight Assignment: A.T.P."? That was the right way. Nevertheless someone in MS authorized the placing all possible airports, the whole planet geography and some others that escape me right now. No small feat. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvarn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Verbosity Man strikes: " Two SP's and one Acceleration later MS so the writing on the wall. Abandon ship, as in NOW!. And here we are, still stock in same old, same old Time ticking." If you were to take one set of packaging material for every game that's been abandoned, it would fill a very large truck. There is no law or precedent which chains a developer to a product until everyone dies. Is the SDK also being distributed by Lockheed's P3D? "How do you create an FSX native airplane without the SDK?" I'm not going to write a book here, but it is possible to develop files which function in the sim without the explicit tools in the boxed SDK toolset. I never implied you can do so without detailed knowledge of what the developer extensibility and "SDK" simconnect data access and functions provide. Such knowledge is available outside the tools in the formalized SDK on the disk. The disk SDK installation is not needed to produce, distribute, or use files created to provide "add-on" extensible resources to FSX or for aircraft, scenery, etc . I see nothing on the MS boxed Deluxe packaging nor on the Acceleration packaging where MS or their distributor promises or lists developer tools or the support thereof as a contractual component of the original purchase. I don't see anything like this in the Eula. Why should another distributor of the product be bound by a responsibility the owner and distributor of the product is not? While I have always appreciated MS's willingness to allow the community to adapt their product and I also give them credit for putting more effort into that than most companies, I never considered this as a protected right of the purchaser to be guaranteed access to these tools or information. Would I argue that these additional files should NOT be provided by a distributor of the product? No. However, I would consider such a thing a customer relations and good will gesture, not something required by contractual law. I think it's better that FSX is being made available to a new, larger customer base and at affordable price instead of the diminishing and more costly model we've been under the last several years. Poisoning the well of good will on the part of developers and stamping the FS community with the moniker of whining malcontents who cannot be satisfied by any good will effort is ultimately self destructive and REDUCES the add-on content being produced at personal risk by third party developers and REDUCES the number of people actively participating as paying customers. Ultimately, the success of the FSX product is the willingness of third party developers to satisfy their income and our cravings for new experiences which can be realized without Dovetail being sued. Whenever there is some new retail modeling, there is a lot of smoke and shadow for a while. Eventually, this will all get sorted out without a war dance. -Pv- 2 carrot salad, 10.41 liter bucket, electric doorbell, 17 inch fan, 12X14, 85 Dbm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmann Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Whenever there is some new retail modeling, there is a lot of smoke and shadow for a while. Eventually, this will all get sorted out without a war dance. You are right, we went through all this with Microsoft Flight. It got sorted out when Microsoft ceased development of the game permanently. Mike Mann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringBean Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "How do you create an FSX native airplane without the SDK?" I'm not going to write a book here, but it is possible to develop files which function in the sim without the explicit tools in the boxed SDK toolset. That's a dodge if I have ever seen one. Until you provide specific info as to how to build a working FSX native model without the tools that come in the SDK we will assume your comment to be worthless. And how many times does it have to be said that MS advertised FSX Deluxe (and therefore FSX Gold) as having the SDK as opposed to FSX Standard which did not. And DTG advertised FSX-Steam as a re-release of FSX Gold. WWOD---What Would Opa Do? Farewell, my freind (sp) Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvarn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "That's a dodge if I have ever seen one." I hate to be baited which is the basis for flame wars. To state the obvious, you are using SDK documentation when you edit the aircraft.cfg file using a plain text editor. No tools required. This documentation is available without installing the SDK package. Developing original aircraft is impossible with editing the air file. No SDK tool can do this. However, knowledge of the SDK documentation is necessary to make full use of third party FREE tools to edit the air file successfully. There are third party CAD tools available which will create 3D models compatible with FSX. Even the GMax distributed as part of the SKD is available elsewhere. Who uses the SDK package to compile their AI traffic files? ADE for airports? SDE for scenery? XML, Lua, C++ for compiling gauge code and DLL modules. Panels created with text editors. The idea that without the SDK installer, add-on development for FSX is impossible or even difficult is a very far reach. I can go on, but this is the last post I'll make on the subject. I'll not be baited again. -Pv- 2 carrot salad, 10.41 liter bucket, electric doorbell, 17 inch fan, 12X14, 85 Dbm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringBean Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 There are third party CAD tools available which will create 3D models compatible with FSX. Name them please. Even the GMax distributed as part of the SKD is available elsewhere. Gmax will not create an FSX native model without the FSX Gamepack that comes in the SDK. Who uses the SDK package to compile their AI traffic files? ADE for airports? SDE for scenery? XML, Lua, C++ for compiling gauge code and DLL modules. Panels created with text editors. Who said anything about traffic files? Or are you trying to confuse the issue with jetsam? ADE needs bglcomp.exe that comes with the SDK, well, not with the Steam SDK. What good are the gauges if there is no model to put them in? I am not "trying to bait you". I am trying to find out why you said... You can still "develop" content for FSX without this "sdk.exe" It is a given that some content can be made without the tools in the SDK as they were never needed to begin with, for some work. WWOD---What Would Opa Do? Farewell, my freind (sp) Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alverthein Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 My PMDG 777 works fine on Steam....I don't like that on Instant Replay the speedbrakes and reversers do not show at all upon landing with Steam ......but.....they don't show in the FSX either...does this have anything to do with the tantalizing subject here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n4gix Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Is the SDK also being distributed by Lockheed's P3D? I see nothing on the MS boxed Deluxe packaging nor on the Acceleration packaging where MS or their distributor promises or lists developer tools or the support thereof as a contractual component of the original purchase. Yes, in fact Lockeed-Martin's P3D distributes freely their SDK for both P3Dv1.4 and P3Dv2.4. As a matter of fact, I use the P3Dv1.4 SDK's tools to compile exported .x and .xanim files for use in FSX, FSX:SE and P3Dv1.x since the entire SDK is the FSX/A SDK with a new installer program. I use the P3Dv2.4 SDK's tools to export .x and .xanim files from Max2012 x64, and that version's XToMDL.exe to compile models for P3Dv2.x. BTW, this has been mentioned at least once or twice already, but one really would have to read the entire thread to know this. At the risk of repeating myself again, while there exist alternatives which will allow the persistent to achive their end goals, FSX:SE customers should not have to go to this extreme. As for the FSX SDK, Microsoft themselves listed that as one of the included features of FSX-Deluxe Edition. This is one of the features deliberately witheld from the FSX-Standard Edition. Posted earlier, but again depends on one actually reading the entire thread. Look on the 'boxed text' in the upper right corner. http://www.microsoft.com/Products/Games/FSInsider/product/features/Pages/default.aspx The omission of the FSX SDK installer from the FSX:SE download is the one and only subject of this thread. It simply makes no sense for DTG to have included any of the SDK if they weren't going to include ALL of the SDK. That's 461 MB of completely useless crap to be downloaded and installed. Bill Leaming http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Combat/0054.gif Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Military Visualizations Flightsim.com Panels & Gauges Forum Moderator Flightsim Rig: Intel Core i7-2600K - 8GB DDR3 1333 - EVGA GTX770 4GB - Win7 64bit Home Premium Development Rig1: Intel Core i7-3770k - 16GB DDR3 - Dual Radeon HD7770 SLI 1GB - Win7 64bit Professional Development Rig2: Intel Core i7-860 - 8GB DDR3 Corsair - GeForce GTS240 1GB - Win7 64bit Home Premium NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 It seems as though Microsoft used to have a different viewpoint: http://www.microsoft.com/Products/Games/FSInsider/developers/Pages/default.aspx Gotta wonder what changed their mind. ...Don I'm guessing it's because they now realize there is a huge consumer base of actual customers out there that isn't willing to buy their product unless it contains value items which matter to us. That's exactly what I was hoping we as a group could accomplish! I never thought we needed to sue anyone or pay lawyers anything. I just feel any large group of customers should be recognized by any vendor who hopes to continue to sell product to us as a group. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Robinson Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't think we constitute that large group of customers, I'd guess that distinction goes to the teeny with Mom's credit card taking a short break from Counter Strike to play FSX for a week (maybe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zswobbie1 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 I still think that Dovetail has released FSX:Steam as pretty much a closed game, as, I'm sure their own release will be. Maybe their intention, as I've said before, is to release a game for newbies, with add-ons in the form of DLC's. Maybe not meant to replace FSX, but a completely separate game, with the bonus of existing add-ons maybe working. A bonus for the development guys morning their installers. Robin Cape Town, South Africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meshman2 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 That's a dodge if I have ever seen one. Until you provide specific info as to how to build a working FSX native model without the tools that come in the SDK we will assume your comment to be worthless. Name them please. It is a given that some content can be made without the tools in the SDK as they were never needed to begin with, for some work. I can make an airport file with AFX. I can make a MDL file with Instant Object Studio. Neither of the above require the FSX SDKs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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