[ Club Chachapoya ] Meigs Or Bust

[TomPenDragon]

Breathtaking, Tao!  Thanks!!!

[PhrogPhlyer]

9 hours ago, MAD1 said:

Why do helicopter pilots sit on the right?

Because it's the "right" thing to do!

 

Actually, it has to do with history, engineering and arm strength,

The collective was developed to give you mechanical advantage to lift the swash plate, long before hydraulic or electrical actuators were used.

So with the cyclic (the stick) in your right hand as with an airplane, and placing the collective close to directly under the center of rotation/swash plates (with some cables and pullies to adjust for actual seat position), you could pull up on the collective with your left hand/arm.

The Sikorsky R-4 had a single collective centered between the two seats, and again, the pilot with a normal cyclic position (in your right hand) became to PIC.

 

[Bossspecops]

2 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

Because it's the "right" thing to do!

 

Actually, it has to do with history, engineering and arm strength,

The collective was developed to give you mechanical advantage to lift the swash plate, long before hydraulic or electrical actuators were used.

So with the cyclic (the stick) in your right hand as with an airplane, and placing the collective close to directly under the center of rotation/swash plates (with some cables and pullies to adjust for actual seat position), you could pull up on the collective with your left hand/arm.

The Sikorsky R-4 had a single collective centered between the two seats, and again, the pilot with a normal cyclic position (in your right hand) became to PIC.

 

 

That makes SO much engineering sense, and I'm appalled at myself that I never figured it out. 

 

Thanks very much. 

[Melo965]

Allegheny County Airport (KAGC) to Meigs Field (KCGX)

 

Pre-flight done, engine started and ready to taxi.  

 

Advancing throttle for take off on runway 13.

 

Climbing out through 1,900 feet and headed for Chicago.

 

On course and at altitude.  Around 12,000 ft now.

 

15 minutes of flight.  Being tossed about by nearby storms.

 

30 minutes elapsed.  Still very turbulent.

 

4 minutes later.  That lightning flash was way too close!

 

2 minutes later.  Calmed down to just a driving rain.

 

1 hour of flight.  Much better than half an hour ago, thank goodness!

 

7 minutes later.  At Top of Descent.

 

At 3,700 feet.  Johnsons Strawberry Farm (9IN3) is below, and Hobart-Sky Ranch (3HO) is behind it.

 

Can see Lake Michigan off my right wingtip.

 

Gary/Chicago International (KGYY) is ahead.

 

1 hour and 14 minutes so far.  Finally able to see Chicago in the distance.

 

Airport in sight ahead.

 

Long curving Spitfire final for runway 36.

 

Over the numbers in a left to right crosswind.  Landed after 1 hour and 18 minutes flying time.

 

Parked at Meigs Field.  I think I am the last one to finally land, but good to see some friends are still here.

 

 

[taoftedal]

3 minutes ago, Melo965 said:

I think I am the last one to finally land, but good to see some friends are still here.

 

Welcome to Meigs Melo ... just in time for dinner ... 

[Melo965]

2 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

So with the cyclic (the stick) in your right hand as with an airplane, and placing the collective close to directly under the center of rotation/swash plates (with some cables and pullies to adjust for actual seat position), you could pull up on the collective with your left hand/arm.

 

Great explanation!  So how does it work in the sim if I have a normal joystick (with throttle) and rudder pedals?  Are you controlling the cyclic and collective with one device?

 

For one of these upcoming events I want to fly a helicopter. 

 

[TomPenDragon]

33 minutes ago, Melo965 said:

Great explanation!  So how does it work in the sim if I have a normal joystick (with throttle) and rudder pedals?  Are you controlling the cyclic and collective with one device?

 

For one of these upcoming events I want to fly a helicopter. 

 

I'm sure it was a great explanation, but I've got rocks for brains when it comes to helicopters.  I must have read more than a dozen good, detailed explanations and I still can't wrap my head around them.  Cyclic (must have something to do with cycles)?  Collective (sounds like some sort of Commie thing)?  Swash Plate (in the sink waiting to be washed)?  I did understand, "Seat," though.  Last week, I set a B-58 down at Meigs in fog and a 20-knot crosswind, and still made the midfield turnoff (the chute helped).  I can't hold a hover in anything for more than a couple of seconds without ending up upside-down.

 

My other issue is my control setup.  My throttles are keypresses (+ and - on the numpad), and my joystick is an old Saitek with a wrist-twist rudder.  For flying rotary-wing, I can use that hack of the zip ties on the centering spring that I commented on a while back to relieve the x-y axis pressure.  I can't do anything about the z axis, though, and after a half a minute or so, it sets off the arthritis in my wrist - once that gets going, I can't even hold the stick.

 

I know this might be an imposition, but PhrogPhlyer, would you be willing to put on your CFI hat and teach me (if I can learn) once and for all how to fly helicopters?  Maybe some others might like this as well.  Perhaps, as Melo said, we can even do a rotary-wing event.

 

Thanks!

[ViperPilot2]

2 hours ago, TomPenDragon said:

I'm sure it was a great explanation, but I've got rocks for brains when it comes to helicopters.  I must have read more than a dozen good, detailed explanations and I still can't wrap my head around them.  Cyclic (must have something to do with cycles)?  Collective (sounds like some sort of Commie thing)?  Swash Plate (in the sink waiting to be washed)?  I did understand, "Seat," though.  Last week, I set a B-58 down at Meigs in fog and a 20-knot crosswind, and still made the midfield turnoff (the chute helped).  I can't hold a hover in anything for more than a couple of seconds without ending up upside-down.

 

My other issue is my control setup.  My throttles are keypresses (+ and - on the numpad), and my joystick is an old Saitek with a wrist-twist rudder.  For flying rotary-wing, I can use that hack of the zip ties on the centering spring that I commented on a while back to relieve the x-y axis pressure.  I can't do anything about the z axis, though, and after a half a minute or so, it sets off the arthritis in my wrist - once that gets going, I can't even hold the stick.

 

I know this might be an imposition, but PhrogPhlyer, would you be willing to put on your CFI hat and teach me (if I can learn) once and for all how to fly helicopters?  Maybe some others might like this as well.  Perhaps, as Melo said, we can even do a rotary-wing event.

 

Thanks!

 

Courtesy of Sergeant Harley Rumbaugh:

 

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

3 hours ago, Melo965 said:

So how does it work in the sim

I'm working on a Helo 101 guide for sim pilots.

Hopefully a few pages of the MUST KNOW gouge.

A great source of info is Helisimmer.com

https://www.helisimmer.com/how-to-fly-helicopters

 

[ViperPilot2]

9 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

I'm working on a Helo 101 guide for sim pilots.

Hopefully a few pages of the MUST KNOW gouge.

A great source of info is Helisimmer.com

https://www.helisimmer.com/how-to-fly-helicopters

 

 

Don't forget Nine's quirks...

[Bossspecops]

9 hours ago, Melo965 said:

 

4 minutes later.  That lightning flash was way too close!

 

Parked at Meigs Field.  I think I am the last one to finally land, but good to see some friends are still here.

 

 

I'm AMAZED you managed to get a pic of a lightning flash Melo!!  I've tried numerous times and only succeeded once, and that was a puny little flash that wasn't all that bright. Yours looks as if it was in close formation with PL965!

 

And it's great you finally made it here too, I wasn't leaving until you did. Where will we go for dinner? 

[MAD1]

Chuckle, chuckle. I just skimmed through the meeting thread (now locked) and had a giggle that whilst TPD specified meeting rules, including only discussing meeting stuff, the other non-meeting stuff crept in, which should have been put in this thread. So much for rules then ... . Glad to see Sirrus came back to make a comment or three, some of which I agree with. Anyhow, you (should that be we? unsure) seem to have got the guts of the matter sorted out, a consensus on how many major and minor events per year. I think this is the main thing. Everything else is small beer, just roll casually along boys. Did someone mention beer? Oh, I just did. Given that somebody has offered to 'shout' (Aussie term, means to pay for a round of drinks), then beer seems more important than any meeting procedures. Cheers, here's luck, prost, campie, bottoms up, etc. boys!

[PhrogPhlyer]

9 hours ago, ViperPilot2 said:

Don't forget Nine's quirks...

Basically, technique is the same across all versions.

I'll stick to the basics.

[PhrogPhlyer]

9 hours ago, ViperPilot2 said:

If only...

[PhrogPhlyer]

3 hours ago, MAD1 said:

Cheers, here's luck, prost, campie, bottoms up, etc. boys!

[ViperPilot2]

2 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

If only...

 

Hey... Clarkie got the Huey to the 18th Green, and picked up BAT*21. Yeah they were shot down, but they evaded and got safe after Arc Light!

 

"Welcome Home, Bat*21. Why don't you and the Captain meet me at the 19th Hole, the Drinks are on me! Cobra Leader, Over and Out."

[TomPenDragon]

MAD1 has summarized the meeting conclusions better than I ever could:

 

6 hours ago, MAD1 said:

beer seems more important than any meeting procedures

 

Sorry if it was a bit of overkill, fellas.  I guess there's only one more question to ask:

 

Where to next?

[Rupert]

On 4/3/2024 at 6:58 AM, MAD1 said:

Why do helicopter pilots sit on the right?

It's because of the mechanics of the chopper.  The Collective (the lever on your left) raises and lowers all rotor blades the same amount by raising the stationary swash plate equally so it requires by far, the most leverage.  By setting the pilot on the right, the linkage from the collective lever is almost straight up to the swash plate making the extra leverage needed, more practical to apply. 

 

With all blades set at the same angle for a full rotation, the aircraft should hover. Having said that, a single main rotor aircraft would rotate in the opposite direction from the rotation of the main rotor because of the torque involved.  Thus at low speed or hover you need another force to prevent unwanted aircraft rotation.  On a single main rotor craft you often have a smaller side mounted tail rotor to cancel out the torque spin, 

 

However with a dual main rotor aircraft torque rotation isn't nearly so much of an issue because the main rotors rotate in opposite directions from each other so the torque reaction is cancelled out.

 

The Cyclic (what you might  call the joy stick) raises and lowers only parts of the swash plate(s) on the fore and aft planes and side planes to lessen or increase the blade pitch depending where the blades are in their rotation to make the aircraft go forward, aft, or sideways.  Since the Cyclic needs much less power to make these changes, the linkage doesn't need to be nearly as straight as that of the Collective. 

  

On a multiple main rotor aircraft you move the plane forward by using more rotor tilt on the aft rotor than the forward one and vice-versa.  Hover is with both rotors pulling equal load,  

[jgf]

20 hours ago, Melo965 said:

So how does it work in the sim if I have a normal joystick (with throttle) and rudder pedals?

 

Throttle is the collective and stick the cyclic, rudder (pedals or twist grip) is the tail rotor.  I find it helps to lower the sensitivity of all axes when flying helicopters (but I'm at best a miserable helicopter pilot).

[jgf]

2 hours ago, TomPenDragon said:

Sorry if it was a bit of overkill, fellas.

 

Was good to get a discussion about this.  Some agreement, some dissent, just a normal day.

 

 

2 hours ago, TomPenDragon said:

Where to next?

 

One of the older threads has numerous proposals for flights, some recreating real events, some just interesting flights, could be a place to start the ball rolling (that's where the Australia event was born, lol). 

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, jgf said:

Throttle is the collective and stick the cyclic, rudder (pedals or twist grip) is the tail rotor.

Absolutely correct.

For flight simming with a helicopter it is less important whether you have a throttle or collective, anti-torque (rudder) pedals or twist grip, or any of the various control peripherals that you can purchase, and more important that you move those controls SLOWLY and SMOOTHLY.

 

I recommend that you find someplace with good visual cues (straight lines are best) and lift slowly into a hover.

Pan back in VC to get the most visual width, and initially don't get hung up on RPM, torque or other details.

Just work on lifting into a low hover (3-5 ft.), maintaining the hover, landing from the hover and repeat.

 

Then progress to small forward, lateral, and back ward movements. Returning to the stable hover after each move.

 

Then slow air taxi in the area, returning to the stable hover, and landing.

 

Once you are relatively comfortable in the hover/hover taxi environment, then you can move onto translating to forward flight.

 

I suggest you do this on a long runway (the long straight visual cue helps).

Lift into a stable hover, apply slight forward cyclic (stick) and accelerate into forward flight.

Then slow down (apply back cyclic while decreasing power) and descend to a stable hover (add power as enter the hover.

Then land from the hover and repeat (longer the runway, the more times you can repeat.

 

After a few time back and forth down the runway, then take the helo around the pattern.

Airspeed will be the hardest thing to visualize, so ensure the airspeed indicator is visible.

 

I'm putting together a brief to include some pics that hopefully will help.

 

Do not get frustrated, none of us did well at this the first time, even with many real helo hours.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

[ViperPilot2]

Gentlemen,

 

Please do not be gunshy about suggesting potential Routes for future Challenges, whether major, minor or whatever. I mean, if you're scared about being on the hook if your suggestion gets picked, then just say you don't want to run the deal.

[taoftedal]

3 hours ago, Rupert said:

... the mechanics of the chopper. 

 

I had to read this three times ... draw a couple diagrams ... look up a few terms ... but I actually learned something!  Thanks Rupert ... really good stuff!

[Rupert]

2 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

Absolutely correct.

For flight simming with a helicopter it is less important whether you have a throttle or collective, anti-torque (rudder) pedals or twist grip, or any of the various control peripherals that you can purchase, and more important that you move those controls SLOWLY and SMOOTHLY.

 

Do not get frustrated, none of us did well at this the first time, even with many real helo hours.

 

Good luck.

Plus one!!

2 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

 

 

 

[taoftedal]

5 minutes ago, ViperPilot2 said:

... potential Routes for future Challenges, whether major, minor or whatever.

 

Want to start the conversation on this thread VP2 or start a new one ... ?