We Microsoft Sim users are very lucky!!

[Rupert]

Over the last few weeks I've been looking at P3DV4 as an alternative to FSX. I've never liked the colors or renditions of P3D but felt that would be a way to use the 64bit format to provide a better sim experience.

 

Naturally as anyone who is new to any format I had a few questions which I submitted on their forum. I never ever got a useful response! What typically happened was someone replied with a snarky response like I know the answer to your issue. Though that answer was never provided.

 

TBTG we actually help each other to resolve our issues!! We are very lucky to be a part of a useful and helpful website!!

 

Rupert

[ftldave]

I think the users of Lockheed-Martin's training software are much like Apple Macintosh and Linux users - a small dedicated group, fiercely loyal, but sorely disappointed that so many in the flightsim community just don't share their views. Strangely, you can see much of the same in the trainsim community, with the schism between legacy Microsoft Train Simulator and the open source Open Rails simulator.

[CRJ_simpilot]

I think the users of Lockheed-Martin's training software are much like Apple Macintosh and Linux users - a small dedicated group, fiercely loyal, but sorely disappointed that so many in the flightsim community just don't share their views. Strangely, you can see much of the same in the trainsim community, with the schism between legacy Microsoft Train Simulator and the open source Open Rails simulator.

 

 

That's actually a very good analogy. If you mess with Linux and can't get a command to work in terminal and ask for help you'll most likely get vague responses as to what the issue is. And God forbid you enter a command in terminal and it does something, but not what you intended. Good luck reversing that cluster &*(@!. Not like Windows at all.

 

I once installed Debian into VMware Player and it didn't self-install VMware Tools. So I had to read the instructions on how to enter all of the asinine commands to get it installed. As usual when I try to do something in Linux it never works. So I had to Google and find the correct commands at Stack Exchange. And with each command entered I got a new error and had to Google that error to fix it only to get a new error. But I was committed to getting flipping VMware Tools installed. All in all it took me about 10 damn hours to get VMware Tools installed.

 

Anyway.... Yeah, P3D may have some benefits. But not only are you violating an EULA, but you may in fact not get the support you need when the proverbial S$#! hits the fan. Granted there is a subforum on here and at Avsim for P3D though. But to tell you the truth, if I violated the EULA, I wouldn't dare go to Lockheed for support. LOL

[dogdish]

I believe I will violate the EULA when Prepar3D V5 comes out. I don't like buying the first generation of any new tech (x64) and FSX has worked quite well all this time, VAS hasn't been much of a issue. I do get micro stutters and would be only reason to switch if Prepar3D was stutter free.

[ColR1948]

I once tried Linux on a machine, I forget what question I asked now on one of their forums, but I too got a very sarky remark from one of them, he talked down to me because he knew Linux and I didn't.

I sent a reply back saying how rude he was and thought I would get help rather than the reply I got.

Fair do's to the admin though, he apologized and told the sarky guy off, I have seen this many times where a newbie asks a question and someone who knows the sim/system or whatever inside out puts them down, this isn't always the case but it annoys me when I see this sort of thing, they forget when they first started and they were a newbie and was asking questions.

 

I'm not saying the OP (Rupert) is a newbie, far from it but he and many others deserve respect when all they were doing was asking a question.

I'm far from an expert but when I see a post from someone and not always a newbie with a problem that I may have had myself and rectified or I know the answer I reply hoping it is what they are looking for and hope it helps.

 

Col.

[ColR1948]

What puzzles me with this VAS business is, I have not heard of it until lately, now all of a sudden people are having problems with it.

I've read and I'm sure most of you have of simmers having their sliders maxed and loads of scenery installed and don't have issues, and this was before installing this PMDG thing.

I had on another PC some software that shut down background programs that were not linked to the sim, I never had any issues with the sim even before I used it.

They say in the link having detailed scenery installed, deactivating parts of scenery, lowing the other detailed stuff and changing the sliders etc, so all those AI traffic files with percentages fairly high won't show unless you know how to change them.

 

I've not had any issues with VAS but reading the link I must be doing something right and got my system set OK, not from being a PC whiz but more from luck lol.

 

https://support.precisionmanuals.com/kb/a108/vas-management-stopping-out-of-memory-oom-errors.aspx

[CRJ_simpilot]

I don't have OOM errors either. But this is very interesting.

 

 

Large amounts of photoscenery areas

Products that install photoscenery for whole US states or whole European countries are a particularly high source of VAS usage when a lot of them are enabled at once. There are several such packages on the market and all of them will exhibit this issue. FSX unfortunately allocates VAS for these areas *even if you are not flying over them and never go near them*. We have observed almost instantaneous OOM errors upon loading our products on customer PCs where they had for instance the entire eastern United States photoscenery installed. Disabling the photoscenery reduced the total VAS load by well over 1GB and allowed the simulator to function normally. Users have reported success with photoscenery and our products by enabling only the states or countries their route passes over. Use Process Explorer to monitor VAS and see if this works for you.

 

I have all of Colorado I have yet to install as photo scenery and I don't even have the PMDG 737 for FSX yet. I've been planing on getting it, but always put it on the back burner. If I liked Mega scenery I was going to buy the whole flipping country! Well, little at a time anyway. I mostly fly high and fast so it would suit me.

[ColR1948]

I was under the impression that if you didn't fly in that area then that scenery didn't load, so why de-activate areas you are not flying in?

Same as AI aircraft, they won't load if you are not flying in their area, if you have an ai traffic file for aircraft flying around in Russia or China and you are only flying in the UK, those aircraft are not flying about somewhere in the background in your sim, neither is the Russian or Chinese scenery loaded.

 

Also does that now mean all that nice scenery you bought and installed will have to come off and not buy any more, so all these ads we see on the opening screen should be taken off because we will get VAS issues lol?

[CRJ_simpilot]

In the linked article from PMDG they mention a tool that can be used to disable scenery you're not using why you fly.

[Rupert]

I was under the impression that if you didn't fly in that area then that scenery didn't load, so why de-activate areas you are not flying in?

Same as AI aircraft, they won't load if you are not flying in their area, if you have an ai traffic file for aircraft flying around in Russia or China and you are only flying in the UK, those aircraft are not flying about somewhere in the background in your sim, neither is the Russian or Chinese scenery loaded.

 

Also does that now mean all that nice scenery you bought and installed will have to come off and not buy any more, so all these ads we see on the opening screen should be taken off because we will get VAS issues lol?

 

Hey Colin, I hear you!!

 

I have spent way more money on upgraded scenery than I used to pay for a new car. Have I ever disabled any of it to fly anywhere in the world? No! Nor should you need to. If you're not there that scenery isn't in use. Considering all the scenery I've bought for England and Scotland alone, if it all fired up every time I started FSX I'd never even be able to start a flight!!

 

As to others' responses to questions of their favorite product, I can agree they may feel like they're the only ones using their program, just like happened with Linux users. I call this a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

"No one uses my favorite program so if anyone asks about it, I'll either give a hugely snarky response or better yet, ignore the question." And true enough, eventually you will be correct as no one will use your favorite program! They're tired of not getting answers to their basic questions!! Which is a pretty good description of my relationship with P3D.

[docjohnson]

Forgive me if this seems like I'm picking on the posts on this thread. Let me explain, I started out in FS2004, then FSXA, picked up and dropped X-Plane 10, and then when P3D v3 came along, I dropped FSXA for good. I have never looked back. The 64bit platform has created a leap in functionality. There are no stutters, and for the first time I can fly a flight without a OOM. In addition, I can install my addons and scenery in a different folder other than the sim root, and they will be loaded again (if I wish) on a upgrade/clean install of P3D. As far as the visuals go, they are pretty stunning with ORBX and FreemeshX. There are so many other things that could be said that can't be said of FSXA. The greatest thing about P3D is that LM listens to the developers and (somewhat) the customers. They will not answer if the answer your seeking is already in the documentation. They don't have that kind of time to waste. So the platform evolves based on community input. As I read through this thread (I'm not on here much) I thought how strange that people find it unsatisfying. My post FSX background, I started out as an academic user, then as a developer. Not only I do development for FSXA (which I believe has a limited lifespan in a 64bit age), P3D3, and P3D4. I don't violate the license, I'm a retired USAF aviator and my research was acceptable to LM, just as is being a developer. If your into aviation research or training versus a playing a game then P3D is the platform. If you are just looking for a game experience then FSXA or X-Plane 11 are the way to go. BTW, I rarely go to LMs forum, but instead I found a great deal of help over at Sim-Outhouse. Avsim is pretty good too.

[CRJ_simpilot]

I just want to point out that I'm not knocking P3D, but basically what I'm saying is you pretty much get in P3D what you get in FSX, albeit 64 bit capability and some other minor things. For instance, is the ATC in P3D diffrent in the game versus FSX? Like does it do real life like aircraft separation and utilize SID and STARS, etc? I wouldn't think so. P3D is basically built upon FSX ESD which is in a nut shell FSX.

 

I'd go with Prepar3D, but I'm not in the aviation field and thus really can't use it. I just don't want to violate an EULA. Yeah, I could grab it at TPB, but then I'd be stuck probably with no updates. As you stated you are retired USAF so it works for you. It's too bad P3D has the EULA because a lot of add-on companies are migrating to P3D it seems.

 

To control OOM's, PMDG's article states exactly how to combat that.

[CRJ_simpilot]

To be honest with you, I think FSX and FS2004 sucks. LOL It's alright, but no where even remotly like real life. I want the real deal. I mean, at least more realistic ATC. Yeah, there are a few add-ons for that, but I tried them and just didn't like it. The other alternative is VATSIM. I flew in there once. It was alright too, but stupid that ATC had me switch over to an unicom text only Comm. And a lot of areas are not controlled by human ATC. I fly around the world a lot. Will I get get human ATC in Greenland? Doubt it, and I probably wont see other aircraft like I do in my game with AI.

 

I'm hoping PMDG's announcement at FlightSim Expo is a new Sim. I have my doubts, but it was a project in the making for ten years. But it's likely an Airbus or something like that. Not really my cup of tea, but I wouldn't mind learning how Airbus's work.

 

Here's what I pretty much would like to see in a Sim. https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?306278-If-I-won-the-lotto

 

:D

[JSMR]

 

I'd go with Prepar3D, but I'm not in the aviation field and thus really can't use it. I just don't want to violate an EULA. Yeah, I could grab it at TPB, but then I'd be stuck probably with no updates. As you stated you are retired USAF so it works for you. It's too bad P3D has the EULA because a lot of add-on companies are migrating to P3D it seems.

 

 

99% of P3D users are using it for ‘entertainment purposes’, and it’s supported by every developer previously making add-ons solely for ‘entertainment purposes’ which are featured on major websites like this one promoting the ‘entertainment ‘ value of it.

 

The main target range for LM - kids 13-16 - are loving the ‘entertainment’ value of P3D while they post thousands of screenshots - most of them crap - using and ‘entertaining’ themselves.

 

 

 

Unless LM are a Organisation of dummies not knowing flightsim.com and **sim.com and others actually exist and it’s screenshot/‘entertainment section solely for the purpose of promoting the ‘entertainment’ part of P3D?

 

 

*rolls eyes emoji and also kick back drinking beer emoji.

[flytv1]

Hi everyone.

I agree that MSFSX (Gold) is still the best and most stable sim tool a pilot can have. I tried most others and none have a significant improvement that would justify migrating to something else.

I spent a lot of time, and effort, trying to get XP11 to something close to what I can get in FSX but, at least to date, I was not able to get there. What makes it worse is that it is constantly changing the core, like the panel layering, flight model..., and there is no real help from any one at LR, that knows anything about it. There are of all types of plugins, layers... but they do not do much to help, and very confusing to most, and you risk to have the next version of not working with them

FSX has all the problems solved, or you can find solutions on the Inet, stable and you can get it set up to where it performs, gives you the sensation, visual and the flight dynamics / model as close as you can get to use a real tool.

I hope XP makes it but there are developers that created acft for the last 20 years that are just giving up on them.

They spend a lot of time on visuals / eye candy and I am not sure if they realize who / what the majority of their customer base is.

[Rupert]

All good thoughts! And yes I do have the "latest and greatest" of FSX and all the add-ons. And the latest P3Dv4 as well.

 

IMHO, There are issues with both programs!! Although P3D is an obvious knock-off of FSX it isn't the same. They have different issues but certainly there are issues with each. The big difference that really matters to me is the core base of users!

 

On this hugely watched FSX forum your question will almost certainly be quickly answered! That answer may not be correct but it is as close to correct as that person can make.

 

Versus P3D where I have posted more than one question and it has languished for days or more with Zero. No. Response. And looking at the number of viewers any time day or night will show P3D people either don't know or most likely don't care about others!!

 

As to the core base concept of P3D, that's obviously up to interpretation!! I feel that as I'm trying to improve my skills, I'm obviously a student and should have an Academic license. Having said that, at any point and time if P3D disagreed they could obviously yank my software as a 70+ year old ex chopper pilot I'd have trouble justifying my license by saying I am an academic.

 

 

Frankly I believe the Academic, etc. license issue has a lot to do with the lack of P3D help. THERE ARE A TON OF PEOPLE OUT THERE SIMMING USING P3D THAT FEEL THEY ARE DOING IT ILLEGALLY! WHY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEIR LICENSE SAYS! So they don't respond in any way to even admit they have the software!!!! EVEN THE P3D SITES DON'T ALLOW YOU TO DISCUSS WHAT YOUR LICENSE IS OR WHY/HOW YOU QUALIFY FOR IT!!

 

I'm not about to spend a lot of money and/or effort on any program that at any second can be stripped away from me because I violated the terms of an agreement which they obviously know is only because most of their users are telling lies!!

[ColR1948]

The X-Plane forum on here is a bit like that, I've got a question on there that has been there for a while now with no response. When I first got XP I went on there asking questions but found not many responses.

I went on their own website forum and started doing a few repaints, the first one I did I uploaded to the wrong section, but after that I uploaded more to the right section.

After a few weeks all of a sudden I got a 'WARNING' popup telling me I had uploaded a repaint to the wrong section and the admins job is hard enough keeping the site tidy.

I replied with a protest saying it was only one I uploaded wrong and the rest I put in the right section so why warn me with a big red popup, a few more on the forum agreed with me so their posts got deleted and I was banned for posting my protest, that is the last repaint from me.

 

Col.

[JHansen]

Highly unlikely that going 64-bit will prevent stutters as it's primarily a VAS management fix. If you already use DX10 mode in FSX and you don't have VAS issues, there's not a great deal to gain by going to P3D (and a lot of cash to lose).

 

With FSXA and DX10 with Steve's Fixer, I was getting frequent stutters and crashes about every 30 minutes. I tried dis-enabling (unclicking) in the FSX Scenery Library all of the scenery that I was't using during a particular flying session. There was a HUGE improvement. Stutters are now very infrequent and the sim rarely crashes. So personally, I'm happy with FSX now and don't see a need for P3D.

 

I had assumed that scenery that was enabled in the Scenery Library but that I wasn't flying over wouldn't put a load on the sim. It now seems pretty clear to me from my experience that all scenery that's enabled puts a load on the sim. I still have an entire Megascenery state enabled, I just un-click the other states and the airports that I'm not using during a particular flight.

[evm]

THERE ARE A TON OF PEOPLE OUT THERE SIMMING USING P3D THAT FEEL THEY ARE DOING IT ILLEGALLY! WHY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEIR LICENSE SAYS! So they don't respond in any way to even admit they have the software!!!! EVEN THE P3D SITES DON'T ALLOW YOU TO DISCUSS WHAT YOUR LICENSE IS OR WHY/HOW YOU QUALIFY FOR IT!!

 

 

That is mostly because they don't understand the difference between license terms and accepted use. As with every product there are both in play, but both have a completely different focus and ramifications.

 

- The license terms for the academic version are crystal clear "K12 or undergraduate student". You must be enrolled in an academic institution at or below this level to qualify, and that is basically it. For a lot of professional software there have always been academic versions available, and the terms are always the same.

 

- The accepted use of the product is "not for entertainment purposes". That has nothing to to with the terms of license acqusition.

 

Lying about your status to get the academic license is basically fraud, and indeed illegal. But everyone can buy a professional or pro plus without issue. Violating the accepted use terms on the other hand is not a criminal offense, that is between you and the licensor. The licensor has every right to revoke our license if that is set forth in the license terms, but you won't go to jail for this. Accepted use terms are present for practically every product, especially in North America, but they usually have a different focus: "don't use this microwave to dry your dog", "this knife is for cutting vegetables only, do not stick it into your neighbor". Etc.

 

What I find most amusing is, that people go on the net to ask about licensing, starting a whole avalanche of discussion threads and threats - instead of simply asking the licensor.

 

As for "P3D is the same as FSX": that depends on how you look at it. As a flight simulator not that much has changed, except maybe the visuals. But for example on the API side of things (PDK, SimConnect, Scaleform) things have changed drastically. P3D is much more a developers platform now than FSX ever was, and there are just so many things that can be done on the platform now that have never been possible before. Sadly, only very few developers go there, and still rely on their age old experience with the ESP platforms. Not that it matters much, because as you rightfully say, the P3D community is small, and it is really conservative in many ways...

[Rupert]

The P3D community is small because the students it was intended for are more interested in their phones than anything else. And the adults who use it don't want to admit they're long past being a student and pay the higher license fees. So yes, many, almost certainly most, users are committing fraud.

 

IMHO, despite all their claims P3D is thrilled THAT SOMEONE-ANYONE BUYS THEIR PRODUCT AND KEEPS IT OPERATING!! But lest I find out I'm wrong in the future, I'm not spending much time or money on a program that it's not legal for me to own. ;)

[ColR1948]

+1 Rupert.

 

So let us say IF only the people who are legally allowed to used are the only ones who bought it there would be even less users of it, it wouldn't last long would it.

 

Col.

[evm]

The P3D community is small because the students it was intended for are more interested in their phones than anything else. And the adults who use it don't want to admit they're long past being a student and pay the higher license fees. So yes, many, almost certainly most, users are committing fraud.

 

IMHO, despite all their claims P3D is thrilled THAT SOMEONE-ANYONE BUYS THEIR PRODUCT AND KEEPS IT OPERATING!! But lest I find out I'm wrong in the future, I'm not spending much time or money on a program that it's not legal for me to own. ;)

 

Hello Rupert,

 

I'm afraid that you are indeed wrong there. Don't make the very common mistake of limiting P3D to its flight simulation properties, it is much more than that. P3D was never intended for students or simmers, those are just a welcome audience. This platform is fully weaponized, but these features are only available in the pro plus version - you can shoot at and destroy anything, in the air, from a vehicle, with a boat and on foot. Which IMHO also explains the "not for entertainment" bit. "Entertainment" would look quite bad on a weapons manufacturers resumee.

 

It is intended for battlefield simulations, emergency response training, AAO training, for exhibition purposes in museums, as platform for full cockpit experiences, and many more professional (=commercial) applications. Many of those are not about what you might think - pilot training - but instead the platform enables customers to train for just about anything. And there are flightsim applications too of course, mostly for specialized aircraft and/or specific situations that would be way too expensive to cover in a level D sim or in real life. For example a fire fighting service has real airplanes to train pilots. But running a full fire scenario with several aircraft in the air being coordinated by an AAO costs tens of thousands on a single day - and they can't just light up a wildfire for that purpose. This is where a sim platform comes in. The key features of the platform are its versatility, accessibility for developers and integration into just about any piece of hardware that you can imagine or invent.

 

Even if 200.000 students would buy a license every year, that would only be a fraction of a percent of the total proceedings of Lockheed Martin as a company. Noone in the higher echelons will even notice it happening, they probably spend more on printer paper each year. Stands to reason that revenue is not what the mainstream versions of P3D are about. A cynical person could argue that it is advertising that people pay for - or paid beta testing. Personally I think that the small development team cares very much about "the community", but that they are bound by company policy.

[Skywatcher12]

All the very "questionable" areas that surround the sale and use of P3D is the reason I won't touch it. As P3D gathers momentum and users, at some point, someone, somewhere is going to look very carefully at what is going on. As soon as LM start copping some heat, you can bet things will change overnight. They are not a gaming developer, they are Lockheed Martin with much bigger fish to fry then worrying about what happens to P3D. To invest anything in P3D at this point in time is a huge risk imo. FSX or FS9 are still the "go to" sims as far as I'm concerned.

[evm]

All the very "questionable" areas that surround the sale and use of P3D is the reason I won't touch it. As P3D gathers momentum and users, at some point, someone, somewhere is going to look very carefully at what is going on. As soon as LM start copping some heat, you can bet things will change overnight. They are not a gaming developer, they are Lockheed Martin with much bigger fish to fry then worrying about what happens to P3D. To invest anything in P3D at this point in time is a huge risk imo. FSX or FS9 are still the "go to" sims as far as I'm concerned.

 

Again - apart from a mild case of potential fraud if you are lying about your status as a student to save some money, no actual law is being broken here. Lockheed is the only party incurring damages, noone else will be able to apply any "heat" if they don't do it themselves.

Absolutely everyone can buy a professional or pro plus license. Just don't expect support/warranty/etc. from the manufacturer if you are using his product for a different purpose than he intended.

 

Besides, even if you are indeed a student, a license that you buy is for life - but you won't stay a student forever. No other producer has ever re-checked the license terms every few years. Their goal is to get in touch with the user base early, to encourage them to buy the professional products once they are grown up. It is a form of advertising, no two ways about it. I wouldn't be surprised if a sizeable portion of the P3D project budget is being paid by LM's public relations department, so the end product doesn't even have to be a commercial success. They can easily afford to throw a million $ at the project every year without batting an eye (IIRC Lockheed as a company had $51000 million in revenue last year (fifty-one-thousand million or 51 billion).

[evm]

There is a recent and very intersting podcast out, where the engineering project manager of P3D is being interviewed. Puts things into perspective (and there is a bit about linceses too):

 

https://pcflight.net/episode-13-lockheed-martin-prepar3ds-adam-breed/