Ball park descent speeds for airliners question.

[HoratioWondersocks]

Hello All

I know that descent speeds are dependent on a number of factors, but is there a ball park general descent rate figure that I can choose.

I am finding that so far using airliners (default a322/737)I invariably finish to high on approach.

 

Cheers Andy

[JSMR]

What 737 are you using? Payware? Default?

 

.78/280kts at the old 3 x height + 10-20nm works for me when I'm in the iFly 737-700. When I'm in the -800, I could just about start at 4 x height being its so slippery.

 

All depends on what aircraft, weight, winds etc as well.

[captpola]

Andy,

 

Depends on weight, winds and phase of flight. I'm on the Airbus 319/320/321 and from cruising altitude in RVSM we descend about 1000 FPM then gradually increase that until we have to make a specific crossing at a fix. On the approach it's usually on 3* glide path which equates to 700-800 FPM

 

Hope this helps

 

-Alan

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HoratioWondersocks]

Andy,

 

Depends on weight, winds and phase of flight. I'm on the Airbus 319/320/321 and from cruising altitude in RVSM we descend about 1000 FPM then gradually increase that until we have to make a specific crossing at a fix. On the approach it's usually on 3* glide path which equates to 700-800 FPM

 

Hope this helps

 

-Alan

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks Alan

I have been using much higher descent rate ie 2000fpm to fl24 M75 and about 1500fpm to fl18 M65 .

I have always used Werner Schotts guides to help me with my various aircraft.

I did realise when I posted this question that descent speeds (as with other aspects of flight ) are bound to be affected by all sorts of variables, but was just trying to get some sort of ball park figure for sSim use.

I will probably do what I usually do in this sort of situation ,and that is to continue to experiment with different descent rates whilst monitoring distance to destination airport etc and if none of that works then there is always desperate dive ,kamikaze mode which I employ in situations like this.

I am actually getting quite good at hand flying landings......But would still like to do it by the book .

I find all the auto stuff rather satisfying (I know others hate all that ,and insist it ain't 'real flying ' )

FS is a broad church though ,so each to his own.

 

Thanks for your suggestions guys

Andy

 

PS Idiot bit ........what is RVSM?

[ScatterbrainKid]

Manually banging out the spoilers for a few seconds on the descent will quickly get rid of any excess height and speed.

[HoratioWondersocks]

Manually banging out the spoilers for a few seconds on the descent will quickly get rid of any excess height and speed.

 

Hello

I am sure 'banging out the spoilers ' features prominently in the airline pilots training manual.

:)

 

Cheers Andy

[Rupert]

Hello

I am sure 'banging out the spoilers ' features prominently in the airline pilots training manual.

:)

 

Cheers Andy

 

What a happy squeaky clean response! You ask for help then laugh at those who help you. At least I hope you're laughing!

 

BTW: A good friend of mine who flies for DHL often complains that several UPS planes of the same model as sold to DHL come with spoilers while the DHL versions don't. As of yesterday when we spoke last, at least one commercial pilot loves spoilers to help the transition while on approaches.

[HoratioWondersocks]

What a happy squeaky clean response! You ask for help then laugh at those who help you. At least I hope you're laughing!

 

BTW: A good friend of mine who flies for DHL often complains that several UPS planes of the same model as sold to DHL come with spoilers while the DHL versions don't. As of yesterday when we spoke last, at least one commercial pilot loves spoilers to help the transition while on approaches.

 

I've noticed an increasing tendency to have a go at me in your postings.

I would appreciate it if you did not comment any more on my questions posed.

If you continue to post in this manner (which of course it's your right to do)I will simply ignore your comments from now on.

ScatterbrainKid would have been intelligent enough to realise I was not being rude or taking lightly his reply.

Lightening up is required.

 

A.

[il88pp]

I agree 100% with Rupert about your reply being rude.

By saying it Rupert helped you too. Yet he also gets a rude reply.

 

Regarding the original topic. There are no shortcuts. No lazy approach. No 'ball park' numbers. Instead do some calculating.

 

That is true for most of what you asked here. As example your latest thread: "I want a fix for all default aircraft".

As I said there too, It's all been written down before. Why ask people to write it all down again especially for you.

Find an aircraft you like, learn to fly it, identify things about it you don't like, and find solutions using the search box on every Forum page, or use Google. Again, there are no shortcuts.

For example, you got the advice to install a new VC. FSND. Did you think that did not come with it's own peculiarities?

By all means install the FSND VC if you want, But i expect you will find niggles with that too.

This Forum, Site, has been going for many years. It is not just a place you can ask questions, it is also a treasuretrove of information where you can find the answer to almost every possible question that may pop into your head.

I don't mind helping, but people do need to be willing to put in a little effort themselves, and you show very little of that.

 

That's not to say that will not change though, so I'm not closing any doors here. It's just honest advice, and yes, advice is not always what you want to hear...

il88pp

[captpola]

Thanks Alan

I have been using much higher descent rate ie 2000fpm to fl24 M75 and about 1500fpm to fl18 M65 .

I have always used Werner Schotts guides to help me with my various aircraft.

I did realise when I posted this question that descent speeds (as with other aspects of flight ) are bound to be affected by all sorts of variables, but was just trying to get some sort of ball park figure for sSim use.

I will probably do what I usually do in this sort of situation ,and that is to continue to experiment with different descent rates whilst monitoring distance to destination airport etc and if none of that works then there is always desperate dive ,kamikaze mode which I employ in situations like this.

I am actually getting quite good at hand flying landings......But would still like to do it by the book .

I find all the auto stuff rather satisfying (I know others hate all that ,and insist it ain't 'real flying ' )

FS is a broad church though ,so each to his own.

 

Thanks for your suggestions guys

Andy

 

PS Idiot bit ........what is RVSM?

 

 

 

Uh oh, I'm starting to feel the tension in here..now now, let's play nice.

 

 

RVSM- Reduced vertical separation, from flight level 290-410 the separation of aircraft goes from 2000 feet above and below to 1000 feet above and below. Example you have an aircraft fly west bound at 380, the aircraft coming east bound will now be at 390 or 370. Reason being is because of so many aircrafts flying at these higher altitudes they don't have the room to space them 2000 feet apart.

 

Hope this helps

 

Alan

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HoratioWondersocks]

Manually banging out the spoilers for a few seconds on the descent will quickly get rid of any excess height and speed.

 

Apologies to you ScatterbrainKid.

If my reply to your answer about descent rates seemed rude .It was not intended as such.

I have only been using X for a month now ,and I assumed the idea of a forum was to ask questions.(of which I have many)

Apparently this is not the case .

 

But I will definitely note your speedbrake tip, and try it on tonight's flight if needed.

 

Cheers Andy

[mqytn]

On the default GPS there is a box on the left side labeled VSR. Take that number and multiply it by 60 to get a good idea on a decent rate. It works perfect on gps direct flights and it even works when flying an ILS approach as long as the approach is set up in the gps. I generally fly -30X60=-1800 fpm which is the default setting on the default jets. Flying to intersections can give weird readings when flying over them so on a flight plan using intersections or waypoints in general, a setting of 1800 usually works. If I'm too high then I'll use -3000fpm till I'm at a good altitude. That's my ball park settings.

[HoratioWondersocks]

On the default GPS there is a box on the left side labeled VSR. Take that number and multiply it by 60 to get a good idea on a decent rate. It works perfect on gps direct flights and it even works when flying an ILS approach as long as the approach is set up in the gps. I generally fly -30X60=-1800 fpm which is the default setting on the default jets. Flying to intersections can give weird readings when flying over them so on a flight plan using intersections or waypoints in general, a setting of 1800 usually works. If I'm too high then I'll use -3000fpm till I'm at a good altitude. That's my ball park settings.

 

 

Mqytn

Thanks for the info.

I have installed the new GPS 500, but have found the VSR figure you refer to on that.

Time to dig out my calculator.

I will bare in mind 1800 ft per minute.

Iam flying now and will experiment on approach.

 

Cheers Andy

[ScatterbrainKid]

I've been playing computer flight sims for over 30 years, including FSX for 8 of them, and my advice to newcomers is to THROW AWAY THE RULE BOOK and just jump in the cockpit, slam open the throttles and you're away!

In particular don't use the autopilot because where's the fun in that?

As I've said before, you haven't lived until you've landed a 747 in external view using just your eyeballs and seat of your pants. You'll never learn to fly if you let the autopilot do it all for you!

For example look at pilot George Kennedy having fun in the film 'Concorde:Airport 1979', dumping the rule book and pulling up inverted and firing a flare out the window to decoy a heatseeking missile, what a man..:)

 

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/airport-conc_zpseqcyrghk.jpg~original

[HoratioWondersocks]

I've been playing computer flight sims for over 30 years, including FSX for 8 of them, and my advice to newcomers is to THROW AWAY THE RULE BOOK and just jump in the cockpit, slam open the throttles and you're away!

In particular don't use the autopilot because where's the fun in that?

As I've said before, you haven't lived until you've landed a 747 in external view using just your eyeballs and seat of your pants. You'll never learn to fly if you let the autopilot do it all for you..:)

 

SBK

I hope this reply does not come across as rude.

I do a lot of manual flying (perhaps a smidgen of AP :))for FSE ie GA and old propliner aircraft.

I have to say though I do also enjoy the whole autopilot IFR thing as well.

I like to set of on a flight ,get my aircraft to cruise alt ,let the autopilot do the business while I open a few cans of beer,listen to the radio/telly/iPlayer for a few hours and then descend and land .

I find it very relaxing (average flt times usually two to three hours, although I have been shortening it lately)

A good landing at my destination is always a bonus (you do still have to control flaps ,app speeds etc so an element of manual is still necessary )

 

Cheers

Andy

[Rupert]

Apologies to you ScatterbrainKid.

If my reply to your answer about descent rates seemed rude .It was not intended as such.

I have only been using X for a month now ,and I assumed the idea of a forum was to ask questions.(of which I have many)

Apparently this is not the case .

 

But I will definitely note your speedbrake tip, and try it on tonight's flight if needed.

 

Cheers Andy

 

And my apologies to you Horatio! I am not aiming at you or anyone else.

 

We're all doing this for fun and enjoyment. We all have different ways to enjoy our hobby & if you look back I have had a lot of questions too. But I was taught when asking a favor, such as for advice to treat the person I'm questioning and their feelings with respect. I took Scatterbrain's tip in good faith & was surprised you snarped at him. That isn't the way to continue to get advice from anyone.

 

As someone else just told you, good advice is not always what any of us want to hear. That was all I was also trying to do, give good advice.

[MBKHOU]

If I do a "normal" descent, IE: TOD is at the usual point vs the distance from the

airport, with the artificial 737NG, If I descend using vertical speed, I usually start off

with -2200. And I'll keep that pretty much down to the low to mid teens or so. Dial back

to slow to 250 at 10k, and then depends on the path remaining. I could continue on as

much as -1400-1500 if close, or much less if a good distance from the airport.

Pretty much sense of smell at that point. The 737NG can descend clean at 1400-1500

and still hold speed below 250 when under 10k. Of course, you will be pretty much at

flight idle, and you won't be able to slow down too much until you shallow up some.

I try to avoid speed brake usage as it's a waste of energy/fuel. Only use em if ATC

throws me a bone that is hard to chew on. Sometimes you have no choice and gotta

raise the boards to slow. It can help a NG slow and descend at the same time, which

normally they don't really like to do that much. Particularly the 800/900's.

[ftldave]

... my advice to newcomers is to THROW AWAY THE RULE BOOK and just jump in the cockpit, slam open the throttles and you're away!

 

That's okay if you want to be like this pilot. Me, I have more fun trying to fly with a bit more realism and, hopefully, develop some skills. :p

 

http://www.kiddieridesusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/monkey-ron-kimball-stock.jpg

[blockwood]

Using 5 times your ground speed gives 300 feet per nautical mile or about a 3% glide slope. Example at 400 knots use a descent rate of 2000 feet per minute. At 250 knots use 1250 feet per minute. At 150 knots use 750 feet per minute. Using this with 3 times your flight level + 10 to determine your distance for top of descent, works very well.

[MBKHOU]

Using 5 times your ground speed gives 300 feet per nautical mile or about a 3% glide slope. Example at 400 knots use a descent rate of 2000 feet per minute. At 250 knots use 1250 feet per minute. At 150 knots use 750 feet per minute. Using this with 3 times your flight level + 10 to determine your distance for top of descent, works very well.

 

 

Yep, that's what I use for the most part. IE: an average ground speed of the NG

is around 440 knots.. x 5 = 2200. I sometimes adjust it a tad depending on the winds.

I could have a ground speed well below 400, or higher than 600 if I have a stout tailwind

pushing me across the sky. The highest I've seen so far was last winter over the

Atlantic. Got up to 176 knots at one point. Thankfully on my tail. 628 knots ground

speed. That trip to London went fairly quick. :)

But for the average in that plane, 2200 is pretty much my go to vertical speed for the

usual descent, and I tweak if needed as I watch the alt vs distance using the 3x +10

rule. I'd rather get down a wee tad early than late.

[HoratioWondersocks]

And my apologies to you Horatio! I am not aiming at you or anyone else.

 

We're all doing this for fun and enjoyment. We all have different ways to enjoy our hobby & if you look back I have had a lot of questions too. But I was taught when asking a favor, such as for advice to treat the person I'm questioning and their feelings with respect. I took Scatterbrain's tip in good faith & was surprised you snarped at him. That isn't the way to continue to get advice from anyone.

 

As someone else just told you, good advice is not always what any of us want to hear. That was all I was also trying to do, give good advice.

 

OK Rupert

Apologies all round.

Its one of the well known problems with e-mail /forum posts etc that opinions expressed completely innocently can be taken as being rude or sharp.

When I replied to SKB I thought I was just being humerous (the training manual ).there certainly was nothing more to it than that.

Anyways I will try to be more careful about the manner of my replies in future, I will use plenty of emoticons to try and make sure any attempts at humour are not misconstrued.

 

 

Cheers to you

 

Andy

[HoratioWondersocks]

Thanks to all for your thoughts on descent speeds.There is plenty to chew on there.

Funnily enough I actually made one of my best landings for a long time last night ,absolutely spot on.

This was done using a combination of SBKs 1800 ft per min, but also unfortunately a copius amount of speed brake as well (probably wrong way to do things I know).

I find myself In X having to concentrate so much on ATC s instructions ,and manually setting things (all these are automated by various gauges in fs9, I don't use ATC either ,just FSnav) that I forgot to keep my eye on my descent speed ,so needed plenty of autobrake tto slow myself up on approach.

I will keep trying ,as I am still doing after years of simming.

 

Cheers to all

Andy

[mallcott]

Final thought: Don't fixate on speed. Let the calculation work it out for the descent timetable, and the speed be a result.

 

The only speed that matters during descent is the

 

Logic dictates that if you can maintain something close to that for the whole descent profile you will have a much easier time reaching the speed at the height - slowing from 280 to 250 is almost certainly going to need speed brakes if you leave the slowing down until 11,000...

 

Passengers need to be considered for the pressure change in the cabin during climb and descent. No-one has mentionde them but if you are flying a tubeliner they are the most important consideration and your ROD cannot exceed 1,000-1,500 ft/min AND retain a suitable cabin differential AND cabin alt change rate.

[Rupert]

Thanks to all for your thoughts on descent speeds.There is plenty to chew on there.

Funnily enough I actually made one of my best landings for a long time last night ,absolutely spot on.

This was done using a combination of SBKs 1800 ft per min, but also unfortunately a copius amount of speed brake as well (probably wrong way to do things I know).

I find myself In X having to concentrate so much on ATC s instructions ,and manually setting things (all these are automated by various gauges in fs9, I don't use ATC either ,just FSnav) that I forgot to keep my eye on my descent speed ,so needed plenty of autobrake tto slow myself up on approach.

I will keep trying ,as I am still doing after years of simming.

 

Cheers to all

Andy

 

Andy,

 

That's what the spoilers are there for. As I said, a good friend of mine is very upset that DHL didn't spend the extra money for spoilers that UPS did! When you are supposed to transit through some crossings at 250 and have a nearby airport to land in, you need to have that option! And as someone else said, don't fixate on your approach speed too much. Late final, yes!

[Delfi]

When I fly the an ILS approach using the default a321 - I always try to aim for an approach height of 3,000 feet about 10 miles out this is so that I can place the aircraft into a stable situation for approach. The autopilot usually takes over for the glideslope about 8 miles out, To reach this I first calculate TOD (TopOfDescent) I use an average of 240knots for my calcualtions, As an example If I am at 20,000 feet, that is 20,000-3000 = 17000, I try to descend no steeper than 1000ft/min so U can see 17000 feet down will take 17000/1000 = 17 minutes - at 240 knots that is approximately 240/60 = 4 miles / minute - multuply 4*17 = 68 miles distance covered - to get down 10 miles add 10+68 gives a rough TOD of 78miles away from landing to start the descent. On the way down gravity will likely want to make me fly faster than my KIAS - so I set it a little lower that what is usually about 5-10 knots less than 240 to stay at 240. I dont do the full descent at 240 knots I start out a little faster and finish up a little slower closer to final approach speed but it seems to work out using an average - if you are flying with winds use groundspeeds instead of kias.