Flight school

It seems landing is beyond my capabilities and time to get some assistance. Has anyone had any experience with flight school? I've watched numerous videos on youtube and read instructions for landing a Cessna 152, the most basic of airplanes, but something seems to elude me and I won't move on until I learn to land and learn how to do so properly. I searched the forums here and gone through the search but nothing comes up. I did find the program in the Flightsim.com. but no reviews and wondered if it might be something that would help. If not that one, perhaps a recommendation for another flight instruction? Any assistance will be appreciated. Thank you. This is a great place to get information and everyone seems willing to help.

What seems to be your trouble exactly in landing... Would help in pointing you to more pertinent information in getting you on the runway safely.

Since we can't see what you're doing, perhaps a comment or two to advise us of what you are doing might help us help you. So what airspeed are you maintaining down final -- or are you even getting to the final approach leg? Are you having trouble aligning with the runway? Are you landing short, landing long, landing to one side, hitting and bouncing, skidding off the runway, or ????

 

Assuming you have practiced in the air enough to be able to maintain an approximate heading (at least within 10º ) and an approximate altitude (at least within 100 ft.) and that you are able to maintain your airspeed within about 5 kts, as well as to be able to change airspeed from one speed to another and hold within 5 kts or so, then I'd start (no wind please) by flying the downwind leg at pattern altitude (1,000 ft AGL) about 1/3 to 1/2 mile to the right of the runway (thus making left traffic) at around 75-80 kts. When abeam the numbers ease the power back to 1700 RPM, or so, while adding 10º of flaps, and then when the numbers of your runway are about a 45º angle behind you, start a left turn, changing your heading by 90º and add another 10º of flaps (20º total now), then turn the remaining 90º to final at the proper spot to align with the runway for your final approach.

 

If any of the above is giving problems, then you need to do some practice until you can keep the needed parameters in line and/or come back here, describe your problem and we'll see what else we can suggest.

 

Once you can do all the above successfully, repeatedly, then descend on final at about 65-70 kts with 20º flaps, keeping the runway so that it looks as if it is pointing straight up, not tilting, and keeping the numbers of the runway at a constant spot in your windshield, correcting by small adjustments of power to keep those numbers constant (one secret of flying well is to make small corrections and make them often).

 

If you can do all that, then as you near the ground (within 100-150 ft or so) start gently adding some back pressure to the yoke while shifting your visual focus to the far end of the runway, rather than near the nose, then as the descent is almost stopped, pull power to idle and try to NOT LET THE AIRCRAFT TOUCH THE GROUND. At this point the idea is to keep the aircraft a foot off of the ground (with power at idle), so that eventually you'll be somewhat nose high and the aircraft will be slowing and you'll soon touch IN SPITE OF your attempt to hold it off.

 

My EMPHASIS above is to underscore the importance of not letting the aircraft touch, of NOT landing, but holding it off.

 

Now that I have thoroughly confused you, read through the above again and try my suggestions in the air, at least 1000 feet or more up, prior to trying it in the pattern.

 

And, of course, you can come back and ask questions as needed, either for clarification or or perhaps for additional suggestions based on how you are doing in the various parts of this.

 

Luck...

In reading the above, part of the problem is confusion about setting flaps. On the downwind leg, airspeed is around 80-85 knots, and being warned about deploying flaps at a speed over 80 knots ergo an increase in altitude to slow the plane before deploying flaps 10 degrees. Reduce throttle to around 1700 r.p.m. and try to stay level at 1000 feet AAL. Part of the issue is gauging the proper distance from (a) the end of landing strip and (b) getting lined up properly. Even if I get what makes me think everything is set correctly, I'm unsure what the rate of descent should be and upon final find myself having difficulty judging the distance from current position to the runway and getting lined up.

I realize after reading the above part of the issue is coming in too slow and dropping airspeed below 60 knots. I usually end up landing long and having a side to side landing approach which could be more easily controlled by a slightly higher speed.

I'll give it a go and see if I can incorporate my landings. Right now I am taking off from KVNC (Venice Muni) and landing at X36 (Buchan Field) a grass strip five road miles and 14 nautical miles from Venice. I use these two facilities because they are close and it is easy to do touch and goes at each.

Flaps may be deployed when you are within the white arc on the airspeed indicator. If memory serves, that is up to 85 kts, or so. And yes, you want to slow while maintaining your constant altitude. Also, if I'm understanding your comments above correctly, you are watching the panel a lot. Instead, you want to keep looking outside with just an occasional glance at the airspeed or altimeter, then back outside. If you pay attention, you'll find that at a given pitch attitude and power setting, you can realize the same airspeed each time you attain that power/pitch combination.

 

So if you're doing 85 kts downwind at a constant altitude, then reducing power to 1700 RPM will cause you to descend if you maintain the same pitch attitude, OR it will let you slow while holding pattern altitude (don't forget to trim for the new airspeed), then once you've reached 65 or 70 kts (whichever you prefer, but do the same EACH time) you'll start a descent while maintaining that speed (controlled by pitch attitude- power is altitude). THEN you can add the 10º of flaps, adjust pitch and power as needed to hold that speed while now being in a descent.

 

With flaps you'll have the nose a bit lower to hold that airspeed while descending.

 

Give all this a try at altitude, first, before trying it in the pattern, with the extra altitude leaving more room for mistakes. Practice until you can do this consistently. THIS is the reason that flight instructors in the real world work with their students in the practice area for several hours, doing various maneuvers including holding then changing airspeed, then altitude, then both at once, then while turning, then while climbing and descending, making all combinations.

 

The goal is to get the student sufficiently capable to not have to think about all this, but to just do it BEFORE starting to practice takeoff and landing other than at each end of the flight. It's to allow the student to learn to actually have good control of the airplane.

 

And learn to make SMALL corrections, rather than big ones.

Landing is both complicated... and quite simple. But still complicated!

 

This is not specific to the Cessna, but rather a general set that can work for a very wide variety of fixed wing aircraft, whether to land on a 15 mile dry lake bed, an international airport, or a gravel strip in the bush.

 

A simple method I use, is to first start from a level attitude, and gently reduce power until you achieve around -500 to -700 fpm on your VSI Vertical Speed Indicator. While not exact, this is a somewhat common glideslope.

 

When you are just seconds from touching the ground, pull throttle to idle and gently steadily pull rearward/pitch up on your yolk or joystick. Doing that is called the "landing flair", and it's purpose is to change from an approach angle to a nice gentle touchdown that won't damage the aircraft, or disturb your passengers. Though you shouldn't really watch the VSI at this point, if you want to gauge it all through a replay, you might like to see roughly 50 to 150 fpm.

 

Getting the actual approach angle to the runway's end, you can use:

 

Medium and larger runways have PAPI lights, and they will change color depending on your approach angle. You want half the lights to be white and half to be red (some will have four lights, others just two). If you see all reds "yer dead", throttle up and go around. All whites, too high.

 

If the runway has an ILS beam and your plane also has that (many small planes are not so equiped, yet it's not about aircraft size). Get the frequency and put it into your nav radio, and learn how to use the indicators for your precision approach.

 

 

If your descent speed is too low/ shallow, you might just "grease" it onto the runway without even feeling it, doing so can have a significant safety downside, where you use up more of the runway than you intended. This can lead to being short of stopping distance, if the runway is covered in rainwater or snow/ice. This situation during a rain storm resulted in an A-340 going off the end of a runway at Toronto CYYZ, it broke apart and caught fire... fortunately the flight attendents were VERY effective and managed to evacuate everyone very quickly, no one lost their lives! The cause was partly gusting winds meant the pilots had to be very careful during the flare to not smash due to sudden downdrafts, which pushed their actual touchdown point further along. Add in the high amount of water, braking was difficult.

 

Gusts and storms, microbursts can greatly complicate things, even a crosswind can produce headaches, a set of rudder pedals will give you a fighting chance, if you can afford them!

Edited December 9, 2021 by Herc79

Taking all into consideration and finding that I am spending too much time looking at the gauges and starting the approach too far afield without using runway at 45 degree angle as a guide. There were excellent points made and tips offered and they are being used as I practice. Making a dozen t & g's each time I fire up the sim, constantly practicing and trying to get it right. It will come to me, eventually and I'll keep you posted. BTW, I have rudder pedals and will post a picture of my setup. The thing is, I am too old for a pilot's license and want to do this as if it were an actual airplane and eventually learn about navigation and air mixture then progressing on and doing a cross country flight. But getting the plane back on the ground w/o screwing up is my priority for now.

 

Since this picture was taken I added a fully expandable slide drawer three inches below yoke and throttle controls to hold the keyboard and mouse. They extend 18 inches beyond the face of the desk so it is easy to use and then push out of the way.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Whizzer

Nice setup -- thanks for sharing that picture.

 

The thing is, I am too old for a pilot's license and want to do this as if it were an actual airplane and eventually learn about navigation and air mixture then progressing on and doing a cross country flight.

 

Actually, there is no such thing as "too old for a pilot's license" but often there are health concerns with age that may be a problem. Still, there are active pilots around well into their 90s, though they are relatively few at that age.

 

And, given your stated goals, it might be beneficial for you to take at least an introductory flight at a local flight school, if you haven't already, or perhaps a couple, just to give a better point of reference to you for the "immersion" that you can sometimes get flying a sim.

 

Anyway, I hope things go well for you, and you know where you can get a lot of questions answered.

Hmm yes, as Larry says, try to take a "familiarisation flight". Cost a bit, but fun and you'll learn just by experiencing, and ask the questions, all the questions! It'll be a flight instructor taking you up. But you'll get to see with your own eyes what a proper landing approach ought to look like, feel how the controls actually push the plane around... IMO worth the time and money just to experience it yourself!!!

 

Hmm... think I might have just talked myself into doing just that soon...

I had one of these flights a few years back. It was brilliant! Was worth every penny, especially as I didn’t pay for it :)

 

Regards

Steve

I had one of these flights a few years back. It was brilliant! Was worth every penny, especially as I didn’t pay for it :)

 

Regards

Steve

 

I too had one of those - and went on to qualify:

I know have more than a thousand hours as PIC. It's addictive!

On the final, try making small (

On the final, try making small (

 

Play with that in the sim if you like, and the sim aircraft flight model may work OK with it, but in real life that's a dangerous place to do uncoordinated flight, except if you intentionally slip. Turns are made by banking the airplane, and a very tiny bank angle to go with a very tiny rudder input maintains coordination. Besides, doing it right helps maintain a healthy habit of maintaining coordinated flight.

I've been practicing and getting better but not yet at the point where I'm proficient. Still landing too long and having minor difficulty lining up but nothing like it was a few days ago. After a few barely passing attempts at landing at previously mentioned airports changed to KFWN (Sussex, NJ) with a tree line on hill before runway but get really screwed up so will keep practicing at all locales.

I will try to get an actual flight in this week so I can see up close and personal how it all comes together. I'll keep you posted. Thanks to all for your kind words, encouragement, suggestions and tutorials.

BTW, my age is eighth decade plus and a few medical issues that would preclude a pilot license. This my way of fulfilling something I wanted to do earlier but "never had the time to do," an easy way of saying I wasn't that interested at the time and now it is too late.

I'm not far behind you one age, but was fortunate enough to have an understanding wife in our early years, so was able to use the GI Bill to get my ratings.

 

I'm really glad you're taking the time now to indulge what apparently grew to quite a passion.

 

Still landing too long and having minor difficulty lining up but nothing like it was a few days ago.

 

If your speed control is good, then when on final approach notice the runway numbers in the windshield. If the numbers (or your desired spot of touchdown) are moving down in the windshield, even slowly down, then you'll be long, while if that spot is moving up you'll be short. So you're aiming to keep it at a constant spot in the windshield. So if you'll be short, add just a slight nudge of power and let it stabilize to see where you'll land. Conversely, if you'll be long, then reduce power just a tad and let it stabilize to see the change.

 

On runway alignment, when looking straight over the nose (not sideways, even a bit), the runway should look as if it's pointing straight up, not tilted to the side even slightly. It's not until you're almost ready for the flare (actually, what we call over the fence (figuratively or literally) ) that you care much about being on the center line -- at that point a VERY slight bank and a VERY slight nudge of the rudder (hard to do in the sim) will correct you, but if you're slightly left or right of the center line it's no big deal -- get the landing made properly first, then learn to correct it at your leisure.

WHEW! Finally got in some decent landings. Looking at the date when the first question was raised asking for help and coming to terms with my ability up to this point seems like a long time. But, things are beginning to come together. Funny how that works. Just is, a week or so ago it all started to fit into place and solidify. I haven't been using the sim every day but still often enough it seems like it was an absolute bear to get to a point where I felt there was progress being made. Still not totally satisfied and will keep working on landing. Next step is to learn about mixture settings and plotting a flight plan. I wonder if it might be more interesting to use radio signals rather than GPS. I would appreciate thoughts on this as I progress.

Glad to hear that you are making progress, Whizzer. My setup for flying is more modest than yours but I enjoy it as well. Have you used the built-in lessons in MSFS? I used them when I got started on MSFS even though i had other experience in sim flying. I found them to be very good at going thru the basics up to doing the solo flight and the cross-country navigation. I did not like that Cessna 152 at first but learned to climb and descend smoothly (most of the time) and make a 90-degree turn without losing altitude. I had to go around in the flight pattern quite a few times until I got the altitudes and turn points correct.

 

Pat

Reading through the thread I would say for the most part it's a lack of practice..... When I started with MS flight sim back in the 90s I learned to land in the Cessna in flight school, once I could do that I went on to fly the Boeing 747... there is a flight school in fs2020 don't feel intimidated to go back to or start from the basics you will learn so much more about your aircraft it's a win-win situation..... For the Cessna, full flaps 80nts and the correct decent speed and it's hard to fail unless you hit a strong crosswind.... When you can land a Cessna on an aircraft carrier, you have control and can land a Cessna no problem and you won't need to rely on ILS you will be able to land your Cessna virtually anywhere...... When I have to cut short a flight in the TBM I will just put it down in a field, I don't think farmers love me ha Edited January 19, 2022 by daspinall

Reading through the thread I would say for the most part it's a lack of practice..... When I started with MS flight sim back in the 90s I learned to land in the Cessna in flight school, once I could do that I went on to fly the Boeing 747... there is a flight school in fs2020 don't feel intimidated to go back to or start from the basics you will learn so much more about your aircraft it's a win-win situation..... For the Cessna, full flaps 80nts and the correct decent speed and it's hard to fail unless you hit a strong crosswind.... When you can land a Cessna on an aircraft carrier, you have control and can land a Cessna no problem and you won't need to rely on ILS you will be able to land your Cessna virtually anywhere...... When I have to cut short a flight in the TBM I will just put it down in a field, I don't think farmers love me ha

 

It's a diffrent sim. So completely different....