I need help with C152 and VOR navigation

I have decided to try and navigate using the C152 via VOR.

 

I enter my flight plan and note the VOR frequency for the destination airport which is only about 20 miles away so should be within range.

 

I start the flight and the both CDI gauges move quickly during initial display as they initialiase.

 

I enter the VOR frequency for the destination into the NAV1 and then select the swap button so that the frequency becomes the USE/active frequency.

 

The top CDI does NOT move.

 

I watched a tutorial video and I seem to be doing exactly as the author does and the CDI changes as soon as the author selects the USE button.

I must be doing something wrong and/or not doing something that I don't notice in the video.

 

I need help. Can anyone advise?

 

Thanks

This is mighty strange.

 

I just created exactly the same flight as in the video tutorial (San Luis Obispo to Santa Barbara) started the flight and entered the same VOR frequency (112.40) and the CDI came to life displaying NAV and FROM.

 

Why won't it work for me for a flight in Australia between VORs just 15 miles apart?

 

The VOR is the same type (VOR DME) as the one in the video tutorial.

 

I have tried many departures airports with two different destinations. The shortest flight is from YSSY to YSRI (also the reverse flight with different VOR frequency of course). The VOR at YSRI is 110.70

 

I then tried other places in Australia to set up a short flight to a nearby airport with a VOR.

They all resulted in the same HOWEVER I then tried a short flight at the very top of Australia (York Peninsular) from YBSG to YBWP and the VOR (VOR DME) frequency at last worked and the CDI came to life.

 

Why then do FOUR other places all with VOR DME frequencies NOT work?

 

I am spending more time trying to work these thing out as I am in the 'air' which is spoiling the use of FS2020 for me and so I am becoming very frustrated.

 

Any help/advise would be appreciated.

Edited April 2, 2021 by jparnold
add "I then tried...."

The VOR at YSRI is 110.70

RAAF Richmond (YSRI) does not have a VOR; what you are trying to tune is a TACAN and that is probably your problem for at least one of your destinations. Your C152 would not have the equipment to operate with a TACAN. Note that RAAF Scherger (YBSG) also has a TACAN, but Weipa has a VOR/DME. So, while you were OK flying from Scherger to Weipa, you could not do the same in reverse. The symbols on the chart indicate if they are VOR or TACAN. Do a Google search on TACAN and VORTAC to see how they differ from a VOR.

Edited April 2, 2021 by nsproles

Thanks for your reply and suggestion. YES Richmond is a military airport with TACAN although FS2020 displays a VOR (not TACAN).

 

I also tried other airports in Australia both in the state of NSW and Victoria and Queensland. The only one which worked was the one in far north Queensland.

 

I also tried a flight from YMBA (Mareeba, Queensland) to YBCS (Cairns Queensland which is a normal commercial airport - VOR DME 113.00) which did not work.

 

Also YSLE ( St. Leonards, Victoria) to YMAV (Avalon Victoria which also is a commercial airport VOR DME 116.10) which also doesn't work.

 

Just doesn't make sense.

 

The symbols on the chart indicate if they are VOR or TACAN.

Which chart are you referring to, the airport charts? Edited April 2, 2021 by jparnold

I have flown several of the routes you mention both with the C152 and C172 with glass cockpit. Other than for Richmond, which we have discussed is a TACAN, the VOR/DME in MSFS works well. Although MSFS shows a VOR at Richmond, that is incorrect. Note that it does not show anything for the TACAN at Scherger.

However, I notice that nowhere have you mentioned adjusting your OBS. This is almost certainly your problem if you are not.

Airport charts giving information can be accessed off the internet free of charge. Try Googling "Jeppesen" or, for Australia, "Air Services Australia". I use Little Navmap and it gives you all that information plus.

I ain't no MSFS whiz-kid ner nuthin', but perhaps it's because from MY global perspective youse guys is flyin' upside down? Just a thunk on a sunny Chicago Friday morn.

I can only make a couple of suggestions, based on real world experience with VOR navigation.

1. Make sure the station you are tuning is in fact a VOR, VORTAC, or VOR/DME facility.

2. Be sure the frequency you input to the nav radio is accurate and correct for the desired station.

3. Once the frequency is verified corect, turn up the nav radio volume and listen to the morse code identifier...it should match what you see on the chart. If it doesn't match, your frequency is incorrect.

4. Turn the OBS to match your current heading, the needle should center. Then turn the OBS to the desired radial and navigate to or from the station.

 

Hope this might shed some light!

I have to agree with nsproles:

 

However, I notice that nowhere have you mentioned adjusting your OBS. This is almost certainly your problem if you are not.

You also didn't mention the state of the TO/FROM flag. You can very quickly check whether the VOR is receiving a signal by rotating the OBS and noting the needle moving and, if you rotate more than half way around you should see the TO/FROM flag change state.

 

Understanding and using the OBS (Omni Bearing Selector) in conjunction with the needles and TO/FROM flag is a necessary part of using a VOR. One other note: The VOR doesn't tell you anything about where you are going, in terms of heading or aircraft attitude, rather you have to compare the compass or DG with OBS and TO/FROM flag, along with the position of the needle, in order to determine where you are actually going in relation to the VOR ground station.

 

Sorry if this is something you already knew, but you've said you are new to this and never mentioned these important items.

 

Ahhh, I see that rockinrobin addressed some of this, too, as I was typing.

Edited April 2, 2021 by lnuss

I can only make a couple of suggestions, based on real world experience with VOR navigation.

1. Make sure the station you are tuning is in fact a VOR, VORTAC, or VOR/DME facility.

2. Be sure the frequency you input to the nav radio is accurate and correct for the desired station.

3. Once the frequency is verified corect, turn up the nav radio volume and listen to the morse code identifier...it should match what you see on the chart. If it doesn't match, your frequency is incorrect.

4. Turn the OBS to match your current heading, the needle should center. Then turn the OBS to the desired radial and navigate to or from the station.

 

Hope this might shed some light!

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but you also need to hit a specific switch to turn on the morse code audio identifier. In the middle panel there's one for "NAV1" and if it is not selected, there will be no audio signal.

John,

 

I think there is something wrong with some of the VOR stations you've mentioned. I only tried your flight from YSSY (112.10) to YSRI (110.70).

 

In the 152 I got no indication that the stations could be selected, meaning no Morse code ID, no needle movement on turning the OBS, no flag indication.

 

In the 172(not glass) I got an indication that the Garmins could tune the stations, but no Morse code ID, no needle movement, no flags.

 

You'll see here that the VOR for SY and RIC are shown as well as the DIStance to each, but no needle action when I spin the OBS:

Thanks to you all for your replies. I have got success - read below.

 

You can very quickly check whether the VOR is receiving a signal by rotating the OBS

If OBS knob only seems to have an effect if the CDI is active (the TO or FROM is displayed and the needles have moved). The TO or FROM was not displayed as previously mentioned.

 

I won't mention any other replies/suggestions as I had tried them all before creating the thread and as I mentioned originally I was able to get the CDI active for (only) ONE flight YBSG (the military airport) to YBWP (commercial airport) with a VOR DME of 112.80

 

This morning I decided to try again and once again the CDI did not activate when the correct VOR was entered not was there the morse code heard etc etc.

Knowing that NDB's are not always picked up unless in the air, I decided to take off. It was not long (about 400 feet altitude) when the CDI activated and the morse code could be heard.

 

I knew that ADF didn't always work unless in the air but did NOT know the same was true for VORs? Searching the internet I find the following -

NDB signals follow the curvature of the Earth, so they can be received at much greater distances at lower altitudes, a major advantage over VOR. However, NDB signals are also affected more by atmospheric conditions, mountainous terrain, coastal refraction and electrical storms, particularly at long range.

 

The elevation of YBSG where I took off from is 1560 feet and the VOR is close to being at sea level. Maybe there are mountains in between.

 

Anyway this has been a learning experience albeit a very frustrating one.

 

Thanks again for your replies.

Edited April 2, 2021 by jparnold

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but you also need to hit a specific switch to turn on the morse code audio identifier.

Yes, you're right Neil. You have to have the nav receiver selected on the audio panel AND you must have the button on the radio itself pressed.

 

Yes John, your experience with altitude is because of propagation characteristics of radio waves, and is frequency related, among other things. The VOR is VHF (Very High Frequency) and is pretty much line of sight, therefore you effectively have to be in direct view (including allowing for curvature of the earth) in order to receive them. NDBs are in the MF (Medium Frequency) band, just as the AM broadcast radio stations are, and they can travel rather long distances, though the truly useful signals you receive from them would still be the "ground wave"* signals, since the signals that bounce off of the ionosphere can be misleading in terms of direction, though they're great for long distance communication.

 

==============================

* Ground wave at MF will bend and travel along the ground for a much greater distance than VHF will, and UHF is shorter yet. VORs have a max range, depending on power (and other things) of 120-150 miles, or so, but you have to be at jet altitudes for the longer part of that scale. At typical light plane altitudes, 40-75 or so miles is more likely, depending of course on conditions.

 

Propagation can be complex, but the above will give you a ball park feel.

Edited April 2, 2021 by lnuss

Thanks Inuss.

 

Firstly I did not click on any knob at first but did so (the NAV1 button) when it wouldn't activate which made no difference. The flight where I was able to activate the CDI at ground level I never clicked on the NAV1 button yet it 'activated' as soon as I swapped the entered frequency to 'active'. Maybe it is selected by default and when using the NAV2 radio then the NAV2 button needs to be pressed.

 

I remember that the nav frequencies have a finite range as I remember creating nav data for airports for FSX and the range was one of the variables.

John,

 

I think there is something wrong with some of the VOR stations you've mentioned. I only tried your flight from YSSY (112.10) to YSRI (110.70).

 

In the 152 I got no indication that the stations could be selected, meaning no Morse code ID, no needle movement on turning the OBS, no flag indication.

 

In the 172(not glass) I got an indication that the Garmins could tune the stations, but no Morse code ID, no needle movement, no flags.

 

You'll see here that the VOR for SY and RIC are shown as well as the DIStance to each, but no needle action when I spin the OBS:

 

Interesting. Could be a bug. But I'm enrolled in ground school for real-life flight lessons and the message for VOR stations was: First, make absolutely sure you are tuned to the correct station. Second, you need to double check ahead of time to make sure that the VOR is actually up and running. They may be down for repairs, maintenance, etc. So hey, it's frustrating that these may be buggy but that's apparently the way it goes in real life too.

Interesting. Could be a bug. But I'm enrolled in ground school for real-life flight lessons and the message for VOR stations was: First, make absolutely sure you are tuned to the correct station. Second, you need to double check ahead of time to make sure that the VOR is actually up and running. They may be down for repairs, maintenance, etc. So hey, it's frustrating that these may be buggy but that's apparently the way it goes in real life too.

 

Well unfortunately we don’t have NOTAMs or a FSS in Flight Sim to tell us a VOR is out of service. I doubt that the sim is going to go for that amount of realism. It’s probably just a bug with some of the VORs.

Make sure the station you are tuning is in fact a VOR, VORTAC, or VOR/DME facility.

 

Interestingly at YSRI the Navaids (in my ERSA book) are listed as ILS/LLZ (IRI) NDB (RIC) and TACAN (RIC) 44x/110.7 and at https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dap/AeroProcChartsTOC.htm#R it is listed simply as a DME.

 

It was mentioned in an earlier post that TACANs are not 'regular' VORs and therefore the (humble) C152 wouldn't be able to pick it up at YSRI.

 

MSFS displays onscreen the TACAN as a VOR/DME yet the CDI is not activated when 110.7 is tuned anywhere (on the ground, in the air etc) and so I assume that this is because in the real world the C152 cannot access TACANs which seems to be great realism.

 

I haven't checked to see if 110.7 will activate the relevant instrument in other aircraft.

 

Regardless MSFS should NOT display it as a VOR/DME!

Edited April 3, 2021 by jparnold

MSFS displays onscreen the TACAN as a VOR/DME yet the CDI is not activated when 110.7 is tuned anywhere (on the ground, in the air etc) and so I assume that this is because in the real world the C152 cannot access TACANs which seems to be great realism.

 

Regardless MSFS should NOT display it as a VOR/DME!

 

Actually, they should -- here's why:

 

A TACAN doesn't use 110.7 or any of the other freqs on which you find VORs. Being a military device it operates at much higher frequencies. However civilians have had access to the DME portion of TACANs for a long time (a VORTAC is a co-located VOR and TACAN) and, on civilian aircraft the DME frequency is normally changed along with the VOR freq change, so the tuning of the 110.7 is, in this case, very specifically so that you can tune in the DME even though there's not a VOR. In the airspace systems in the U.S. and, I presume, most of the rest of the world, the VOR freqs and DME freqs are paired by international agreement such that any DME can be tuned by tuning the VOR radio to the associated VOR freq, 110.7 in this case, even if there is no VOR there. But it gets you the DME.

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks for that information.

 

I need to now know if a VOR/DME can either be BOTH a VOR and DME or simply just a DME? If so how does the pilot know what to expect? If he tunes his NAV radio to the frequency and the CDI doesn't activate he might wonder if the instrument is not operational

 

I notice that on the Airservices Australia webpage it (110.70) is marked on both the ILS-Z OR LOC-Z RWY 28 and NDB-B OR NDB RWY 28 as just a DME which suggests that is is just a DME radio.

If this is the case then perhaps it would be better if MSFS displayed it just as a DME and not a VOR/DME which is confusing - well to me anyway.

Edited April 4, 2021 by jparnold

I don't know about MSFS 2020, since I don't have it, and I don't have Australian charts, but a real world chart should not show a VOR if one doesn't exist. But it still would have to have you tune the nav radio to the VOR freq associated with that DME freq. Your description says to me that it IS just a DME, so they have something they can use for distance information in conjunction with other navaids.

 

I rather suspect that on real life Australian charts there is an indication that the 110.7 is a DME only, and probably that there is a colocated TACAN. Perhaps someone in Australia with knowledge of those charts can point out the difference.

I rather suspect that on real life Australian charts there is an indication that the 110.7 is a DME only, and probably that there is a colocated TACAN. Perhaps someone in Australia with knowledge of those charts can point out the difference.

The Air Services Australia chart shows that 110.7 is a DME. There is no mention of VOR or TACAN.

I ain't no MSFS whiz-kid ner nuthin', but perhaps it's because from MY global perspective youse guys is flyin' upside down? Just a thunk on a sunny Chicago Friday morn.

Mention of sunny Chicago mornings brings back memories. Twenty years ago I detoured from a Quebec - Melbourne journey to stay a few days in Chicago. My wife was incredulous that my only reason for going to Chicago was to visit Meigs Field, which was still operational then. Old Microsoft Simulator flyers will remember the Microsoft blimp that would sometimes appear over Meigs. Well, I was at the top of the Sears Tower, looking out toward Meigs, when lo and behold, a blimp appeared and flew over Meigs. It made my day. I have a photo of it. I suspect that Sedona will not take Meigs place in old simmers hearts. Edited April 4, 2021 by nsproles

The Air Services Australia chart shows that 110.7 is a DME. There is no mention of VOR or TACAN.

 

Correct.

 

Moving on I looked at the East Sale (YMES) airport which is a military airport (like YSRI mentioned in earlier posts).

 

Strangely MSFS shows a VOR DME at 108.100 which is NOT shown on any of the airport charts at Air Services Australia which only lists an NDB (also shown in MSFS as an NDB) at 350.0 and a DME (also lshown in MSFS as just a DME) at 109.50.

 

I wonder where MSFS obtained their navigation beacons and frequencies and why some DMEs are shown as just a DME and others incorrectly shown as a VOR/DME instead of just a DME?

East Sale has a TACAN. 109.5 is the DME for the ILS. Its code is IES, and is shown on Air Services chart "ILS-Z or Loc - Z RWY 22". 108.1 is a DME, presumably from the TACAN. Its code is ESL and is shown on Air Services chart "DME or GNSS Arrival Procedures".

Yes to all that. I didn't look at the "DME or GNSS Arrival Procedures".

 

What I am really getting at is the in MSFS2020 the navaids for YMES are as follows -

ESL VOR DME 108.100

IES DME 109.500

ESL NDB 350.00

These are what I guess MSFS will use for navigation regardless of the real airport charts.

 

ESL VOR DME 108.100 cannot be used as a VOR which is very misleading. Shouldn't it be then shown as a DME?

 

Or am I not understanding something?

 

You also didn't mention the state of the TO/FROM flag. You can very quickly check whether the VOR is receiving a signal by rotating the OBS and noting the needle moving and, if you rotate more than half way around you should see the TO/FROM flag change state.

 

Understanding and using the OBS (Omni Bearing Selector) in conjunction with the needles and TO/FROM flag is a necessary part of using a VOR. One other note: The VOR doesn't tell you anything about where you are going, in terms of heading or aircraft attitude, rather you have to compare the compass or DG with OBS and TO/FROM flag, along with the position of the needle, in order to determine where you are actually going in relation to the VOR ground station.

 

 

Ah, yes Larry, brings back memories of learning VOR and how it works in navigation.

 

A great refresher, took out my Cessna 150, and set out to refresh my old memory on VOR. Florida is an easy state to go from point to point, so I chose to take off from Lantana Airport (Palm Beach County Airpark), made one big loop to the south and then headed north towards Palm Beach International KPBI VOR Freq 115.70 and followed the VOR (watching the TO/FROM flag and needle, crossed the VOR and then decided to head west to Pahokee VOR Freq 115.40, which I followed until close enough to change direction to head up towards Vero Beach, Treasure VOR Freq 117.30! This to me was a great refresher, and maybe the OP should find an area where he can practice between 3-4 VOR's observing VOR heads and what they are showing.

 

Wished I had this flight simulator when I was learning to fly and later obtaining my PPL, much more relaxing, and you can hit the pause button, to regain your thoughts! Great learning tool!

 

Have a nice day and Happy Easter to all!

 

Rick :cool::cool: