johnost Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) Today - trying to set up an intercontinental flight in MSFS - I started thinking longingly of the Autopilots in the original FSX tubeliners. You set the desired altitude, heading, speed and rate of climb/descent, AND THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT YOU GOT - NO MORE - NO LESS. Remember that? The autopilot would not try to outsmart you or do other things on its own. I am an old fuddydut for sure (and not aspiring to become a real pilot), but I don't understand the big push for complex, self-flying/thinking airplanes, self-driving cars, etc. What do we really gain by reducing our required skills and attention trusting computers more than people? Remember the 737 MAX disasters? Sorry! just felt like venting. Edited November 16, 2020 by johnost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallcott Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Today - trying to set up an intercontinental flight in MSFS - I started thinking longingly of the Autopilots in the original FSX tubeliners. You set the desired altitude, heading, speed and rate of climb/descent, AND THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT YOU GOT - NO MORE - NO LESS. Remember that? The autopilot would not try to outsmart you or do other things on its own. I am an old fuddydut for sure (and not aspiring to become a real pilot), but I don't understand the big push for complex, self-flying/thinking airplanes, self-driving cars, etc. What do we really gain by reducing our required skills and attention trusting computers more than people? Remember the 737 MAX disasters? Sorry! just felt like venting. Trying to draw ANY analogy between msfs and modern autopiots is irrelevant. The A/P in MSFS are not fit for purpose, if my limited experience is anything to go by. The more an airplane can out-think a pilot the better, if my 1,500 hours of real flying is anything to go by... allied to many pilots of my acquaintance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgets Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Amen. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]Intel i7 7700K 4.5 Ghz, GTX 1080 SC 1TB 7200RPM HDD, Samsung 500Gb SSHD, 750W PSU, P3DV4, Windows 10 64 bit Home Premium.REX,GEX,UTX. UTLive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budreiser Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 I spent much of my flightsim life hand-flying the B-727. I felt more familiar with that instrument panel than I do with my Honda Odyssey. I won't settle for being a passenger. When it comes to a motorized vehicle, I'm a control freak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytv1 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 The more an airplane can out-think a pilot the better, if my 1,500 hours of real flying is anything to go by... allied to many pilots of my acquaintance! Hi. Really! I hope I never have to fly in your sky. If you cannot outsmart and control an airplane / autopilot you have no business flying in Rea World. You may be OK in the sim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnost Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Interesting and very different opinions. I don't know enough about the differences between the MSFS autopilots and real life autopilots. But even back in FSX I purchased a very fancy 787, which came with a 120-page manual, and the AP required 19 pages to explain. I believe it was hailed as being very close to the real thing. Unfortunately I am not ambitious enough (not to mention lacking sufficient memory skills) to try to master such complexity. Which brings me to a thought that has occurred to me, and will probably result in great disagreement and condemnation. It is my impression (and I may be wrong), that the flight sim community consist largely of mature and older guys like me, who are not aspiring to become as knowledgeable as real world flight captains. Would it not be commercially realistic for add-on airplane designers to provide an A and B version, where A is as close as possible to a fully complex simulation, while a B version would be equally realistic in looks and flight characteristics, but a little simplified concerning AP, FMC, etc. In other words designed for the hobbyists who enjoy flying, but are not requiring a study-sim? I am in no way proposing a degradation in available sim realism for those who want it, just an accommodation for the less ambitious simmers. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger1962 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I am in no way proposing a degradation in available sim realism for those who want it, just an accommodation for the less ambitious simmers. What do you think? I was thinking exactly the same thing! I'm quite happy with the default MSFS autopilot(s), which are equal to what used to be called "Lite" versions by the FSX payware developers, who were supplying to the never-ending demand for more realistic systems than the FSX default without going to 'study' level. Now it seems that there will be a demand for simplified, default FSX-like systems instead, and why not? As long as the graphics quality isn't the same as the default FSX planes of course lol... Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..." Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallcott Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I was thinking exactly the same thing! I'm quite happy with the default MSFS autopilot(s), which are equal to what used to be called "Lite" versions by the FSX payware developers, who were supplying to the never-ending demand for more realistic systems than the FSX default without going to 'study' level. Now it seems that there will be a demand for simplified, default FSX-like systems instead, and why not? As long as the graphics quality isn't the same as the default FSX planes of course lol... And where is that demand? Coz my experience tells me that the absence of those sophisticated systems is but one of many shortcomings in Asobo's offering... Unless you include children making `Vroom Vroom` noises while asking for 787's to loop-the-loop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger1962 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 And where is that demand? Learn to read. Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..." Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shb7 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Today - trying to set up an intercontinental flight in MSFS - I started thinking longingly of the Autopilots in the original FSX tubeliners. You set the desired altitude, heading, speed and rate of climb/descent, AND THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT YOU GOT - NO MORE - NO LESS. Remember that? The autopilot would not try to outsmart you or do other things on its own. I am an old fuddydut for sure (and not aspiring to become a real pilot), but I don't understand the big push for complex, self-flying/thinking airplanes, self-driving cars, etc. What do we really gain by reducing our required skills and attention trusting computers more than people? Remember the 737 MAX disasters? Sorry! just felt like venting. I agree 100%! Except you didn't have to set the vs. It was set automatically to the default vs when you turn altitude on. So was fsx so wrong, or is fs2200 wrong? Does anybody know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger1962 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 FSX wasn't wrong as such, it was incomplete. The complex FSX payware planes used autopilot code which already existed within FSX, but which wasn't fully used in the default FSX planes. The default MSFS autopilots are on a par with the FSX Carenado payware autopilots, for example. Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..." Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plainsman Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 What strikes me about the "good old days" is the nature of the community vs 15-20 years ago. We still have a few of the perpetually disgruntled, (I remember several discussions on this forum with a fellow who thought FS2000 was the ruination of the simulation genre, and that it would never succeed like FS98). The big difference I see, is the absence of the 35-45 generation currently. When I got started in the hobby, there were many active young designers and artists and creators. I had three or four mentors maybe 10 years my senior, but still under 60. Now it seems almost the entire community is either 70+ or 16-19. In the latter group, the interest appears temporal, just awaiting the next bombastic explosion riddled phenomena. My son's mid 40s generation seems totally absent? Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested? To me, that is a bit disheartening! I can learn to enjoy what ever AP or graphical innovation that comes along, But I have no ability to nurture a whole generation oblivious to this hobby, or simulation in general. I don't have an answer, and that is really perplexing! I7-9700K, RTX-2070, Asus Strix Z-390-H MB, 32gb G Skill 3000 CL15, Corsair Obsidian 750D case, WD Black 1tb M.2, Crucial CT500MX SSD, Seasonic Prime 750W Titanium PSU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger1962 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested? They're all on their Playstations and Xboxes, PC's are for weirdos. Console gaming is HUGE business. Here in the UK, Amazon sold out of the new XBox Series X in 20 minutes on pre-order launch day. You can be sure that when MSFS is launched on Xbox, they'll all sit up and take notice. I pre-ordered mine direct from Microsoft just to run MSFS, and I can wait for as long as it takes to be released. Edited November 17, 2020 by tiger1962 Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..." Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disneyflyer Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 What strikes me about the "good old days" is the nature of the community vs 15-20 years ago. We still have a few of the perpetually disgruntled, (I remember several discussions on this forum with a fellow who thought FS2000 was the ruination of the simulation genre, and that it would never succeed like FS98). The big difference I see, is the absence of the 35-45 generation currently. When I got started in the hobby, there were many active young designers and artists and creators. I had three or four mentors maybe 10 years my senior, but still under 60. Now it seems almost the entire community is either 70+ or 16-19. In the latter group, the interest appears temporal, just awaiting the next bombastic explosion riddled phenomena. My son's mid 40s generation seems totally absent? Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested? To me, that is a bit disheartening! I can learn to enjoy what ever AP or graphical innovation that comes along, But I have no ability to nurture a whole generation oblivious to this hobby, or simulation in general. I don't have an answer, and that is really perplexing! Late 40's guy here. Have loved all version of the sim. I miss the old AP ways but am enjoying figuring out the nuances of the ones in the newest version. Now if Asobo would just stop breaking them when they put out patches/updates. ....Signature not required for delivery.... **i7-9700k @ 3.60GHz, GeForce RTX 2070 Super, ROG Strix Z390-E, 32gb G Skill 3200 C16, 1 TB Pcie SSD, 850w Power** **Honeycomb Alpha Yoke, Logitech Throttle, Logitech Pedals** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDV Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) Interesting thread. I use the sim for enjoyment, that’s about it. I suppose if one wanted to be a commercial pilot, then they would be on that career path and 180 page manuals for AP would be required education. SO IMHO it’s all in what a person wants out of a sim. Seems there are sims for about everything. Bottom line is I agree an option for A/B type planes would be great! For me and many others I’m sure the real life career gives the adult daily requirement of stress anyway. Especially in MSFS2020 I just VFR in the sim and try to have some enjoyment for now. And yes, I still use FSX and FS9 on occasion for the fun of it! My .02 Edited November 18, 2020 by MikeDV Dell XPS 8930 Core I9-9900 3.10 GHz, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, 32GB RAM @2666 Mhz, Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060, 1 + 2 TB SSD’s and 1 + 2 TB spinner sata’s, Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X, FS9, FSX, MSFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shb7 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 FSX wasn't wrong as such, it was incomplete. The complex FSX payware planes used autopilot code which already existed within FSX, but which wasn't fully used in the default FSX planes. The default MSFS autopilots are on a par with the FSX Carenado payware autopilots, for example. What I meant by wrong, is that you couldn't fly the real plane, they way it flew in fsx. So I guess that's true. I don't mind them changing it to a accurate model, but they should tell you how to fly it with documentation, rather than force you to learn it by trial and error, or reading forums, or watching YouTube videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger1962 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 they should tell you how to fly it with documentation, rather than force you to learn it by trial and error, or reading forums, or watching YouTube videos. Yes they should have provided a manual, even a quick start guide for each of the cockpits would have been useful. Nobody has thought to use the interactive checklist feature to find out how to start from cold and dark in any airplane, there wasn't even a hint to do that! Having said all that, Carenado never produced manuals for their FSX payware planes either, perhaps Asobo have caught the bug from them... Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..." Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnost Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 What strikes me about the "good old days" is the nature of the community vs 15-20 years ago. We still have a few of the perpetually disgruntled, (I remember several discussions on this forum with a fellow who thought FS2000 was the ruination of the simulation genre, and that it would never succeed like FS98). The big difference I see, is the absence of the 35-45 generation currently. When I got started in the hobby, there were many active young designers and artists and creators. I had three or four mentors maybe 10 years my senior, but still under 60. Now it seems almost the entire community is either 70+ or 16-19. In the latter group, the interest appears temporal, just awaiting the next bombastic explosion riddled phenomena. My son's mid 40s generation seems totally absent? Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested? To me, that is a bit disheartening! I can learn to enjoy what ever AP or graphical innovation that comes along, But I have no ability to nurture a whole generation oblivious to this hobby, or simulation in general. I don't have an answer, and that is really perplexing! I agree with you, except I don't see any teenagers in the flightsim hobby. That has me a little worried, because that may signal the end of the hobby, as the older generation disappears. To get interested, teens need space adventures, violence and lightly clad females. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natman1965 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Mom always use to say; "television was the biggest opportunity for education this country has ever seen and we flushed it down the toilet". Most people now walk around every day holding in there hand a computer ten thousand times more powerful than the one that was used to send a man to the moon and what do they do with it. They take picture's of there lunch and post it to there face book. Sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_P Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I never flew a real airplane with all the expensive avionics included in FSX and MSFS aircraft let alone an AP. I assumed that FSX accurately depicted the AP functions until I started using MSFS. In order to use the G1000 in MSFS, I had to download the actual manual from Garmin. However, if real aircraft react to the AP like they sometimes do in MSFS, I don't know why more pilots are not being killed these days. Asus Prime Z490-P motherboard, Intel i7-10700K CPU, 32GB DDR4 3200 memory, GeForce RTX 2070-8GB video, 1TB M.2 SSD, Windows 10-64 bit, Acer 23"WS LCD and Benq 19" LCD, Logitech Flight Yoke, Thrustmaster Pedals, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro Joystick, TrackIR 5, MSFS Deluxe and FSX Deluxe, UTX-USA2, UTX-TAC, GEX-NA, ASN, WOAI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnost Posted November 21, 2020 Author Share Posted November 21, 2020 I agree with you 100%! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobalt Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 Mom always use to say; "television was the biggest opportunity for education this country has ever seen and we flushed it down the toilet". Most people now walk around every day holding in there hand a computer ten thousand times more powerful than the one that was used to send a man to the moon and what do they do with it. They take picture's of there lunch and post it to there face book. Sad Can't resist pointing out that your post, spelling- and punctuation-wise, supports your comments about education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfolsom Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Unfortunately, as I have seen all throughout the internet, spelling and punctuation, even sentences starting with a capital letter seem to be lacking. It makes it harder to read and understand what was said. But this example is by far not the worst that is presented elsewhere. I, myself, am far from the scholarly type but I do enjoy correct spelling and punctuation (and all the letters included in the words) example "the" missing the letter "y" in they". Just look at other web sights to see what I mean. At least I understand what this person is trying to say. And they say it fairly well!! MSI MPG Z490 Gaming Plus Motherboard, I9-10900K 5.1 Ghz, 64 GB 3200 DDR4 Ram, Nvidia RTX 4080 16GB V-Ram, 1 TB NVMe M.2 Drive For Windows 11, 2 TB NVMe M.2 Drive For MSFS, 850W P/S, HP Reverb G2 VR Headset, Honeycomb Alpha Yoke, Honeycomb Bravo Throttle Unit, Saitek Pro Flight Combat Rudder Pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnpaul Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 I wish these planes were a bit more like the old defaults from FSX. While it's great that the 2020 planes tried to be a little deeper on systems than the FSX defaults, it isn't an improvement if they don't behave the way they should. What good is having an FMC if it won't properly do a Direct-to command? This sim seems to have potential. But what I like to do is fly extremely realistic jets and commuter props in a manner as close to the real-world as possible. That just isn't available right now with 2020. The planes make that impossible. The ATC also needs improving or being replaced with 3rd party software (I'm looking at you, Pro-ATC). I'd say that's all about a year away, if it happens. PMDG will probably lead the way. For now, P3D, with all the great planes available, is where I'll be flying. For me, it's all about the aircraft. The scenery in MSFS will be great once you can fly something decent around with proper ATC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natman1965 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Can't resist pointing out that your post, spelling- and punctuation-wise, supports your comments about education. I grew up watching tv and if it were not for spell check none of my post would be readable.......so exactly!!!! By the way my lunch was better than your lunch and I want the world to know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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