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Is It CH Rudder Peddles, Or Me...


Minas Man

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Boy, I sure hope somebody here can help. I'm about to give up. Been struggling with correctly landing Cessna 172 Skyhawk for months. I've narrowed it down to the rudder peddles (control???)

 

When I hit the ground (sometimes literally), the d*(*ED) plane heads violently to the left. Now I know that the Cessna, being a one engine machine has a left-turning tendency. But this is crazy. Then, when I give it right rudder, it heads in the opposite direct, just as violently.

 

I have the brake fully deployed (which may, or may not be right). But the d**ED) plane is almost uncontrollably. Until it comes to a complete stop...usually where I don't what it to. Today I ended up totally on the right side of the runway...In the Edwards Air Force Base ditch, Rwy 22L.

 

I have riddled with these peddles and riddle with them. Configured until I'm blue. I'm at my wits end.

 

So, can anyone help me :( Am I doing something wrong?? Is it CH Rudder Peddles, or is it me?

 

P.S. These peddles are brand new...straight out the box. Just so you know. Thanks, in advance....

:(

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1 - NEVER land with brakes on

2 - Be sure you are close to stall speed when touching down. Full flaps may require a slight power

increase

3 - Make sure that rudder control (twist) on flight stick (if any) is disabled. Interference between two

controls can cause erratic behavior

4 - If you still have problems, reduce rudder pedal sensitivity by adjusting response curve in Controls

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

 

 

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Well thank you, johnost. I appreciate the response. I'll try tonight.

 

1. Actually, the brakes aren't on until AFTER I land, but I push to toe brakes all the way down. Don't think that's right, now that I think about it.

 

2. I'm landing at about 65kts, sometimes slower. In fact, sometimes the stall warning goes off, but by then, I'm so close to the ground, I ignore it.

 

3. I don't start working the rudder controls until after the landing, on the roll down the runway. At least I THINK that's what I'm doing. At that point, everything is happening so fast....

 

4. I'll definitely reduce the sensitivity...

 

Again, thanks a lot

Reg....

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Hi.

If you have any Xwind selected turn that Off, set to Zero first until you get used to it, it's unnecessarily difficult in XP to land in Xwind..

During landing / touch down do not touch the brakes until after you slow down, try to do a No brake landing.

 

In a real World Cessna front wheel faces forward until you put some weight on it, the nose comes down, in the XP the front wheel is turning as soon as you touch the the rudder pedals, which makes more difficult to handle during landing than it needs to be.

A threshold speed of 55 KTS is perfectly fine for a 172, with flaps down, they will fly down to 40 kts, I've had some older ones fly at 28kts, needs some foot work but still manageable.

 

To make good landings you need to have Maneuvering at slow speed under control, practice that in the air ad make sure you have perfect control of altitude and heading with he horn on, around 55 kts or less, 1700 RPM, with 10 deg of flaps at 2000MSL.

 

As you come on final get stabilized around 55 kts / 1400 RPM/ 200FPM and wait for it it will land itself,. after the nose touches down Power to idle, wait for slow down then apply the brakes.

Try this: Stabilize about 3 miles out 500 ft AGL 10 deg of flaps, 1700 RPM, 55 kts level, trimmed for no hands, as you get to 2 miles reduce power to about 1450, do not touch the trim, just maintain center line with the rudder and wait for it. If you need some airspeed lower the none very slightly, if you need altitude add a bit of power, be patient it's very easy. I have a video I made but I am not sure how to post it here.

Post here if you need more help, landing is one one the easiest maneuver in flying, but there is very little room for error.

Edited by flytv1
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Really?

 

Hi Ian.

Really.

I've demonstrated the no hands landings, in Real flight, hundreds of times, try the technique I described above in the sim. In real life is much easier because the plane stabilizes in seconds compared to the sims that may take up to 3 minutes. In addition the response to controls is much better in real life...

When you have to do a L8, Loop, even ground reference maneuvers there is a lot more control and work required. To do a perfect Inside loop is next to impossible and then there are lot more complicated maneuvers.

I made a video in Xplane, hands off landing but I am not sure how to post it, if you follow the procedure above you should be able to easily accomplish it.

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The braking may be making the issue more difficult. The rudder peddles allow for some steering of the C172 while braking makes for tight turns.

 

"The Cessna 172 (152, 175, 177, and 182 as well as others) all use steerable nose wheel by pushing (not depressing) the rudder pedals in the direction you want to go. If you want the nose to turn to the right, you push the right pedal forward, same with the left. You can augment this with differential steering if tighter turns are needed."

 

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/57057/cessna-172-steering-system-and-torque-link-purpose

 

D

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"Landing is one of the easiest maneuvers in flying."

 

While landing is hardly the most difficult maneuver one faces as a pilot, for the average sim pilot with no real-world flight experience, taking off, climbing, turning, flying straight and level, and descending are much easier. If you don't care how they look, even loops, rolls, lazy eights, et al. are pretty easy . But after having had the whole virtual sky to wander in, bringing your bird down to a relatively small spot on the surface at the right speed, in the right attitude, at the right sink rate and then bringing it to a successful stop can be a challenge.

 

And you should bear in mind that for some people it can be discouraging to be told that the thing they're trying to master is "one of the easiest".

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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....And you should bear in mind that for some people it can be discouraging to be told that the thing they're trying to master is "one of the easiest".

 

I find that to be totally against what normal thinking is, and should be.

If you can prove that the statement is correct there is no reason for anyone to feel that way. People are being told that this is difficult and than you have instructors that are making it difficult, most are just doing it because they do not know any better, and now you have someone with over 60 landings and still cannot do a simple landing. Why? mainly because they were told to expect all these phases, Round out, Flare.... and most people are missing the most important point, Set up early, Slow fly it and wait.

Yes as you want more precision / accuracy... sure you can make more adjustments, but th basics are done. The plane is already in the proper attitude all you have to do make small adjustments and stay on the Centerline.

It will not give you a precision landing but most runways are over .5 miles long as soon as you touch down, if you approach at the proper speed, you will slow down, and if you have some power during touch down reduce it to idle and in most cases you will never have to use brakes.

 

@Mina, see if some of the settings I have included will help your handling. XPlane can be a pain stabilize after any, even small changes. Also make sure you do not have any other axes assigned to the Yaw.

When you reduce power from 17-1800 RPM to 14-1500 do it very slowly otherwise the sim will do al kinds of gyrations / oscillations until it stabilizes.Xp11CtrlsSml16s.jpg

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"Landing is one of the easiest maneuvers in flying."

 

While landing is hardly the most difficult maneuver one faces as a pilot, for the average sim pilot with no real-world flight experience, taking off, climbing, turning, flying straight and level, and descending are much easier. If you don't care how they look, even loops, rolls, lazy eights, et al. are pretty easy . But after having had the whole virtual sky to wander in, bringing your bird down to a relatively small spot on the surface at the right speed, in the right attitude, at the right sink rate and then bringing it to a successful stop can be a challenge.

 

And you should bear in mind that for some people it can be discouraging to be told that the thing they're trying to master is "one of the easiest".

 

Lamding is not one of the easiest manoeuvres, crashing is.

Utter rot from a non-pilot!

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..Utter rot from a non-pilot!

 

Hello Sir Super aviator.

How has that to do with the OPs post? Can you help? Yes, do it. No, I would not use any bandwidth with useless remarks.

Clairvoyant are you? You need to get together with Shirley McSomething and exchange views.

 

Are they letting GA go above 2500 ft now? I've had a few of you compatriots begging to get trained in US.

 

Had a bad day? Past your 6:00 PM bedtime? One of the Asobo20 Testers?

 

To OP, give those settings a try, and I suggest you do not pay attention to these kinds of posts, you will have no problem getting the landing down, just follow my procedure outlined.

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Just wanted to say "Thanks" for all the feedback...I tried Flytv1's approach and it worked for me :)

Also, others, like dashort3 and someone else here mentioned the braking. This time I tried flytv1's brakeless landing and that's what worked. Just found that the rudder was a little difficult until the plane slowed down. Peddles may be a little sensitive.

 

Didn't even use the brakes until I taxied off the runway to parking. Don't know where I got that fully depress upon landing idea. On YouTube, even airliners seem to brake very gradually. Well, live and learn. Thanks, again

Reg...

P.S. 200 fpm before landing seemed like I used up a lot of runway. But at least I didn't totally, F&%* up. Thanks....

Edited by Mina's Man
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...P.S. 200 fpm before landing seemed like I used up a lot of runway. But at least I didn't totally' date=' F&%* up. Thanks....[/quote']

 

Hi.

This is just the most basic, raw, approach and you can very easily make small changes and create perfect, greasers.. landings. If, as you get close to ground, right before touch down you slowly bring the top of he cowl, see some of my posts as to the setting your cockpit view to see the top partial of the cockpit, to the end of the runway, then power off just in time of touch own.. you can get perfect landings. You can add to that the Power Off landings, Short and Soft field... as you get more proficient

The point is to get the basics down and build upon it.

None of the sims re very good at landings and or presenting the proper out the cockpit view, overly sensitive to controls... making things a lot more difficult than they need to be.

Add to that some developers, like Assobo, have no real direct knowledge about real flying, they have to rely on other companies to just about everything other than the eye candy, and you have a recipe for disaster.

By the same token you have LR / Austin? that writes code that he things that's how the acft should behave like, not code to simulate how the acf that is already flying for over 50 years flies, and you have this arrogance that helps no one.

But we have to do with what we have, some changes can be made to the flight dynamics in FSX, XP.. to help but the Xwind landings flight dynamics in XP are in a need of a lot of help. In the Assobo20 all the control inputs are out of wack and a horrible release.

Just in case you want to set your view properly in XPlane you can use Up/Down/L/R/,/. keys to set your

position inside the cpit and save that using Ctrl+Numkey 1-9 the to recall just use the Numkey you saved the setting to.

I also make many changes to the original / default 172 and if you are familiar with a Text editor, or Plane maker you can modify your .acf files to your liking, see some info below. Make small changes at the time.

Note: make sure you Save your original first, I typically rename them to .oriVerx

 

Moves Cpit to proper view: G1000

1. P acf/_pe_xyz/0 -0.700000012 L/R =smaller neg -.7

2. P acf/_pe_xyz/1 1.520000048 U/D Small=Down SR22 1.89

3. P acf/_pe_xyz/2 2.830000000 F/B Small=Front SR –6.74

Increase Flap Deploy time to 6 sec.

P acf/_flap1_dn/count 12

P acf/_flap2_dn/count 12

 

P acf/_slat1_dn/count 12 was 10

P acf/_slat2_dn/count 12

P acf/_flap_ext_time 7.0 was 4

P acf/_flap_ret_time 7.0

 

P acf/_average_mac_acf 4.600265980

 

 

Moves wings Down and Back 172 SP 6Pk

P _obja/31/_v10_att_y_acf_prt_ref -0.300000012

P _obja/31/_v10_att_z_acf_prt_ref 0.300000012

 

Moves wings Down and Back 172 G1000

P _obja/18/_v10_att_y_acf_prt_ref -0.30000012 was 0

P _obja/18/_v10_att_z_acf_prt_ref 0.300000012

Lights move

1. P _obja/21/_v10_att_y_acf_prt_ref -0.300000012

P _obja/21/_v10_att_z_acf_prt_ref 0.300000012

 

RIGHT TURN TEND CORRECT

P acf/_ailn_tab 0.004550000 //for rc1 .0040 for RC2 .00355

P acf/_rudd_tab 0.004000000 // .002 was 005

 

DIEHEDRAL better rudder control in Xwind

P _wing/10/_dihed_design 3.500000000 was 1.5 try 2.5

P _wing/11/_dihed_design 3.500000000

 

No Particles--If missing add them

In 11.50 may be

P acf/_no_default_gun_fx 1 - was 0

P acf/_no_default_heat_fx 1

P acf/_no_default_smoke_fx 1

P acf/_no_default_wash_fx 1

P acf/_no_default_gear_fx 1

 

11.40 ver

P acf/_no_default_engine_fx 1 --If missing add them next to Gun in .acf was 0

P acf/_no_default_gear_fx 1 --If missing add them next to Gun in .acf

P acf/_no_default_gun_fx 1

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Flytv1, thanks also for the screenshots on Response Curves. I have to admit, most of the videos on this subject (YouTube) have me totally buffaloed. Guess I'm just dumb, or something. Anyway, response curves are something that I will work on once I've got the basics down pat. Thanks, again...:)

Reg...

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Damnit!!! Here we go again....Flew to Las Vegas (KLAS)...Landed on Rwy 1L fairly well. Then it started all over again...Plane goes to the left...Right rudder to correct...plane goes wild...ends up in the left-hand ditch!!!! GD PEDDLES!!! :mad:

Now, it's under the hood...re-calibration (again)...mess with the sensitivities (again) mess around with the response curves!!!! :mad:Not a happy camper right now :mad:

P.S. BTW, Mina's my wife's name....She thinks I'm crazy...Maybe she's right!!!!:mad:

Edited by Mina's Man
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Hi.

I've been around sims from the time before PC existed and I've been Real world flying for over 40 years and I can tell you that if the C172 would be as difficult to use like in some the sim, not many people would be flying them today.

You just have plan and think way ahead in the sims because it takes a long time to properly respond / stabilize with the end result, to the user, being over correction.

Get your numbers down Level at certain speeds, Around the Pattern, Down 500.. and be patient, set your power and wait for the software to catch up with you.

The thing to keep in mind is Pitch + Power= Performance if either one changes it affects the others, KNOW your numbers and Be patient.

The Ground handling in XP even without Xwind is very difficult the trick is to use the rudders at very low speed and if you use brakes you Must apply them at exactly the same time or you will likely end up in the ditch.

I can tell you that the C172 in Real World is one of the easiest to fly and most forgiving plane in existence.

None of the sims are very good at representing it in the sims. The best ground handling is the MSFSX, P3D, even the new Assobo has very poor response to control input, probably the worst of the bunch.

 

Don't spent time with re calibration, unless you have a device that is very unstable it will not change. the CH Brakes are basically handled as switches, you apply them and they are fully on.

There is a change you can make in the C172... .acf file, see below, to make the brakes less forceful but it takes longer to stop.

Rudder on the ground adjust

P acf/_brake_co 1.0

P acf/_no_hydro_force_mult_brakes 1.0

P acf/_brake_to_steer_power 2.0 try 1.0

There only only a couple things that help, patience, and know your numbers.

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flytv1: Thanks again. The best advise you could have given me is patience...Something I'm not known for. BTW, I flew this morning, and was not half bad. One thing I did was keep my damn toes OFF the toe brakes. I absolutely refused to touch them. Plane rolled down the runway, and again, I didn't brake until I left it. Not a bad session if I say so myself. Well, thanks again. And yes, I'll be more consistent with the numbers....:rolleyes:
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  • 2 months later...

Damnit....Here we go again. I'm struggling like crazy. An hour ago, the same thing happens. Did NOT touch the brakes...Plane went violently to the left...I barely touched the pedals. Uncontrol able. After all was said and done, the plane was propped up on it's tail...nose-wheel high in the air...I'm sick of this BS. Patience...I'm out of it...I'm actually beginning to hate this sim.

 

Speaking of which...Tried reaching out to X Plane forum. Bloody waste of time. Nobody answered. I've tried everything I can think of...Calibration, response curves, I even thought the CH peddles were damaged. So I bought a set of Logitech. Nice hardware...too bad they didn't solve the problem.

 

I guess I just can't fly. Not everyone can.....:confused::mad:

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Hi.

Remember THIS IS A SIM and not something that you should apply to Real life. The fact that you are having difficulty with the sim is Not and indicator that you cannot fly in Real life.

YOU CAN DO IT.

Things to remember, Settings No Wind, No Gusts, No Thermals, When you set up your Jstick, in addition to use the settings I mentioned before try to move your stick just slightly, in the last step, after it asks you to leave centered, to give you a wider dead / null zone, you may get a message about it, just ignore it.

On the approach on glide path, use an airport that has the lights, PAPI VASi.. get set up for about 1500 RPM at 65 KIAS, full flaps with a descent rate of about 300 FPM and Wait until you get very close to surface than just pull the nose / pitch the top of cowl to just the end of the runway, reduce power to Idle, basically level and Wait on the center line just control it with the Rudder, HEELS on the floor, just have your toes on the bottom of the pedals, very very lightly and Wait.... let the plane slow down by itself, No Brakes if you run out of runway you need to adjust your settings next time, the plane should slow down / stop by itself before the end of a 4-5000 Ft runway and only when it's at 0 Zero indicate airspeed move your feet up and use the Rudder / Brakes.

Post a pic of the your inside the cockpit view of the acft. I hope you are using something like a C172, you should be able to just see the top of cowl.

Trust me it's not Rocket since but you have to be patient the sim takes a lot longer than real life acft to respond and settle to a proper state, by about a factor of 3. Be patient, if you get uncomfortable with where you are put on pause P and make sure you are properly set up.

You can Save a .sit where you are about 10 SM and practice that multiple times, to have enough time to get set up and Remember the numbers and get stabilized, using the RPM>VSI>Glide path.

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Well, flytv1...I did it. It wasn't pretty but I seems like I was over-controlling all along. Just the tiniest bit of rudder pressure kept the plane straight. It was so tiny, it seemed like I was applying almost no rudder at all. So, there we have it. Thank you so much...Maybe I'll see you on YouTube someday....:)
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  • 2 months later...
For it's vaunted realistic flight characteristics I don't find that the X-Plane 172 flys anything like a real airplane. It's like driving and old car with bad steering. Inputs react slowly so you over react and set up wild oscillations. Would never have gotten my PPL if my trainer handled this way. Oh well I have nothing better to do and no animals were harmed by my wild antics. I learned how to fly and then to sail so I'll figure this out. However I would be totally lost if I didn't already have some idea what's going on. Progress not perfection.
Liquid cooled, Intel i7-10700K, NVIDIA 3070, G.Skill Ram 32 GB, 2TB M.2 NVME. Z490 MB Loads of Christmas lights. :pilot:
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