Altimeter/Barometer settings for landing

Following on from my previous thread on the subject, when I try to land the default 737 using the AutoPilot I touch down 1000 yards short of the runway. Any ideas.

 

Alan

Following on from my previous thread on the subject, when I try to land the default 737 using the AutoPilot I touch down 1000 yards short of the runway. Any ideas.

 

Alan

 

Who's landing that aircraft? You or the autopilot? No autoland on the default 737?

Does this happen at all airports?

 

Mr Zippy is right, you do need to fly the last part of the approach manually.

Configuration, speed, pilotage.

 

Notice what isn't mentioned for a landing?

 

Yes, the autopilot.

OK. I thought I had seen videos that suggested that you could though. Should the ALT HOLD disengage once I have detected the localiser and pressed the APP button?

 

Alan

OK. I thought I had seen videos that suggested that you could though. Should the ALT HOLD disengage once I have detected the localiser and pressed the APP button?

 

Alan

 

Only if you are close enough for that to happen. You are relying way too much on videos that some of these people have posted. Most have not fully disclosed what features they have added to their aircraft. I have a very simple autoland gauge that I installed on my POSKY Southwest 737-800. Works like a champ!

 

autoln21.zip I think this is the one. It's for FS2004 but works for FSX.

There are a lot of videos that show a lot of things. (James Bond in his Lotus that operates as a submarine, etc.)

 

Re-read the ILS approach instructions. It'll explain the procedure much better than I ever can. But yes the ALT HOLD should disengage at a specific point if you're shooting the approach correctly.

 

Does ALT HOLD disengaging make the make the approach an "Auto-land Approach?" No. You still fly the plane to the ground. Whether the ground and runway both exist in the same spot you land is up to you.

 

I recently reread an old Vietnam era saying. "B-52 carpet bombing is 100% accurate. Every single bomb hits the ground." Left unsaid is that the specific location of ground where any given bomb might land might not be the bombardier's 1st choice.

I noticed I have to be flying level with alt hold on when pressing the app button. If I do it while climbing or descending it sometimes does not follow the glideslope and just drifts down. (it does keep following the localiser, so it took a few times before I noticed.)

 

I now only press app when AT, AP, alt hld, and hdg hld, are on, and when flying level.

I'm not using AP to land but I thought I could use it to get me almost to the runway. Where are these ILS approach instructions you speak of?

 

My problem is that I don't know where most of my issues are. Is it my PC, is it the way I have it set up or is it that I just can't get the hang of landing? I notice for example that if I use my mouse on the MDP, to select APP, that the Alt Hold does automatically deselect but not when I use the Saitek panel. My ATC says QNH every other video I've seen says Altimeter. Why?

 

Alan

My ATC says QNH every other video I've seen says Altimeter. Why?

 

Alan

 

Where are you flying? If in the U.S.A. it should say Altimeter. I would have to try Canada to see what ATC says. I know your measurements are still set to Hybrid, correct?

May depend on what you choose in edit voice ppack (EVP).

You can choose European or U.S. terminology.

May depend on what you choose in edit voice ppack (EVP).

You can choose European or U.S. terminology.

 

Tried that! I choose each of the 3 terminologies and depending on planetary location it was QNH or when in the U.S. it was Altimeter (When using Hybrid or Metric in settings/general/units of measurement). If you ONLY want to hear "Altimeter" from ATC, then keep the measurements at the U.S. settings.

Yes thank you Mr Zippy I can now get ATC to say Altimeter. I thought that was what was giving me issues but it's not. I'm flying below the GS, I select the frequency and the PFD and MFD respond. When the indicator starts to move I select APP, the HDG HLD light goes out. I wait, the vertical indicator starts to move but the ALT HLD light stays on. Everything I've read and seen suggests otherwise.

 

Can you suggest any good sources of information with regard to this? I'm happy to go off and read a book rather than coming on this forum constantly.

 

Alan

There are a lot of videos that show a lot of things. (James Bond in his Lotus that operates as a submarine, etc.)

There was a Lotus dealerhip across the El Camino from Stanford Mall that had that car, and yes, it really converts to a submarine. They had a huge tank of water, and once every hour they would use a crane and lower it in. A guy in it would push the switches, and lo and behold, conversion! It was only there for a few days, and then it went on to other dealerships. Publicity tour. Point being, it really did convert! Pretty neat to watch...

Yes thank you Mr Zippy I can now get ATC to say Altimeter. I thought that was what was giving me issues but it's not. I'm flying below the GS, I select the frequency and the PFD and MFD respond. When the indicator starts to move I select APP, the HDG HLD light goes out. I wait, the vertical indicator starts to move but the ALT HLD light stays on. Everything I've read and seen suggests otherwise.

 

Alan

Is this always at the same airport? Are you sure the ILS you have selected actually HAS a glideslope feature to it?

Is this an add-on plane? A lot of those, especially the tubes, need to have the freq's set into the FMC to work properly, I think. I am NOT a big-metal pilot by any means.

You can also take a look at the [Radio] section in the aircraft.cfg, and see if it has a line like this: Nav.1 = 1, 1, 1. If the third number is a 0, change it to a 1.

You ARE using your Nav1 radio for the ILS selection, yes? I don't think Nav2 will work to capture GS.

Just a few possibilities...

Pat☺

Yes thank you Mr Zippy I can now get ATC to say Altimeter. I thought that was what was giving me issues but it's not. I'm flying below the GS, I select the frequency and the PFD and MFD respond. When the indicator starts to move I select APP, the HDG HLD light goes out. I wait, the vertical indicator starts to move but the ALT HLD light stays on. Everything I've read and seen suggests otherwise.

 

Can you suggest any good sources of information with regard to this? I'm happy to go off and read a book rather than coming on this forum constantly.

 

Alan

 

Once again you have failed to say where you are flying....Oh, well! Keep in mind that not all runways have a working glideslope. You say you are below glideslope, so I assume your "Below Glideslope" light is on. Are you getting the Pink diamond pointer for the glideslope? The altitude light will not go off until the altitude pointer comes down to half way. I'll try to find a picture.

 

I thought that I had described it adequately. The fact that I'm detecting the ILS signal is surely an indication that I am at an airport with ILS landing facilities. Yes I am getting the pink diamond glide slope indicator as well as the horizontal one. I thought I had described that as well. The "diamond" drops beneath the the middle position but the ALT HLD does not go out. I said that!!! I also said that the horizontal one does. The only thing I didn't say was which airport but considering all of the above that didn't seem relevant but as you ask in this case it's Guernsey in the Channel Islands. Once again I was trying to copy a tutorial flight step by step but my set up was not responding in the same way as that shown.

 

Where do you learn all of this? Some have already questioned the wisdom of taking videos seriously but although some are very poor, others are very well presented and this seemed like a good way to learn.

 

 

Alan

I thought that I had described it adequately. The fact that I'm detecting the ILS signal is surely an indication that I am at an airport with ILS landing facilities. Yes I am getting the pink diamond glide slope indicator as well as the horizontal one. I thought I had described that as well. The "diamond" drops beneath the the middle position but the ALT HLD does not go out. I said that!!! I also said that the horizontal one does. The only thing I didn't say was which airport but considering all of the above that didn't seem relevant but as you ask in this case it's Guernsey in the Channel Islands. Once again I was trying to copy a tutorial flight step by step but my set up was not responding in the same way as that shown.

 

Where do you learn all of this? Some have already questioned the wisdom of taking videos seriously but although some are very poor, others are very well presented and this seemed like a good way to learn.

 

 

Alan

 

Sorry, I do understand your frustration. Now that I know here you are I can test it also to see if there is a problem with the airport. I have one thing that I did to practice an ILS approach and landing. I flew the "Monsoon Mission" ninety-eleven times. I would check mark the box at the bottom of Missions so I could change the type of aircraft I flew. This is a great Mission because your total approach is blind and you can't see the runway until about 1 mile out.

Alan,

 

I think you may have another issue. I flew the default plane into EGJB using 108.1mhz which is for 09 IUG & for 27 IGH. Weather was 12C 29.92" and calm winds.

 

I flew in first on the 09 & then on the 270 and, though it's not proper procedure, let the plane fly all the way to the ground. In both instances HD Hold and ALT Hold kicked out at the right time & I touched down exactly where I should have.

 

Assuming you're on the right frequency and lined up correctly. Are you flying the correct speed and flap settings? Low, not enough flaps, & slow will all put you down early. That would be my first guess.

 

Please recheck you take-off & landing speed & flap charts. They're just off the dashboard in the memo page. Print out the chart so you 'll have it in front of you and make the flap changes as suggested..

 

We really are trying to help!:)

Runways that share a common ILS frequency for both ends can be problematic in FS.

 

Basically, what can happen is that if you click on APR too early the AP will lock on the localizer for the reciprocal end instead of your intended end putting you on a backcourse approach, which has no glideslope.

 

For this reason you should not click on APR until you are established on the localizer, or at least very close to it.

 

You should be able to verify you are on the backcourse localizer by switching off the AP and turning your plane to the left. If the localizer needle moves to the right, then you are indeed on the backcourse.

 

peace,

the Bean

Good Point Bean!

 

I'm such a creature of habit, that someone a little less practice might have that problem didn't occur to me.

Agreed with the guys! I just flew into EGJB runway 27 ILS 108.1. Picked up the ILS MORSE code about 27 miles out. At about 17 miles out ATC gave me my final heading to 245 degrees. I then hit the APP button. I'm at 2000 feet. At aprrox. 12 miles out the heading light goes out and I turn to final approach. At around 8 miles out, the Altitude light goes out and I begin descent. Now at full flaps, speed set to 136KIAS, wheel are down and locked.

 

Touchdown about 20 yards past the threshold and used less that 3/4 of the runway to come to a full stop.

 

This is the start of descent

 

Full stop on the runway (I know Southwest doesn't really fly here!)

I'll give a quick stab at this with a few rule of thumbs for ILS approaches. The first rule, the approach should commence with a 30 degree intercept and being below the glide slope. If the course is 100, then your intercept heading should be 070 or 130. The altitude for glide slope intercept should normally occur at the FAF/glide slope intercept altitude. You should intercept course some where between 7 to 10 miles. I typically don't arm the app unless on the LOC. Second rule of thumb depends on the aircraft type. When on course and on glide path, the aircraft should have a specific approach pitch when on proper speed. The flight manual and FAA documents normally depict the approach geometry. In the real world this will change based on glide path angle, but sims usually have the 3 degree glide path. So for the 737, with flaps 30, on a 3 degree glide, and on proper approach speed, the pitch should be 2.5 in the -800. You should see 2.5 to 3.0 depending on the realism of the flight model. You don't fly a specific pitch on approach, it's just a cross reference. Also in the real world, we calculate a descent depending on the approach speed and path angle. Typically this stays between 600 to 800 feet per minute. Once again, this is just a cross reference. So if you are on the glide path and on speed, you should see 2.5 to 3.0 for pitch and 600 to 800 feet per minute descent on the slope. Most ILS systems will take you to the captain bars 1000ft down creating a no flare wheel touch down point about 700 ft down the runway. Proper flare should put you down 1000 to 1500 ft down the runway. It would be hard to imagine that you would land short if the glide path stays centered during the approach. Even when transitional to a visual, you are still aiming 1000 ft down(captains bars).

After carrying out a number of tests I have established that the issue seems to be associated with my Saitek Multi-switch panel. If I use my mouse on the MDP everything works as expected. When I run the Saitek test application it seems OK but I have noticed that my panel has an additional switch to the one shown on the tester, and the lights do not correspond, so I'll get in touch with Saitek.

 

Alan

Nice and informative reply g5flyer! I see you have 5 posts and have been aboard since 2010. Please respond more often!We can use the opinions of people like you!:cool:

GridNorth,

 

The approaches I described in my post 18 were made with a Saitek multi-switch panel. I love it because it allows me to select options, etc. without going to a cockpit view and using the mouse. Counting the AP push button, my panel has a total of eight (8) push buttons. And of course their lights turn off they disengage or are disengaged. I also have switches for display, auto-throttle, flaps, pitch trim. And the + - knob which appears to be a double speed knob but is not.:mad:

 

I'd be very interested in your multi-switch panel issue!! And I'm sure a lot of other users would be as well. Please provide details such as: How many push buttons or additional switches does your panel have? Which switch/button do you have that isn't in the training video?

 

And finally, what response did you get on your support question??

 

Your reply might well help a whole group of us in the future. Thank You!