I wanted to buy MSFS 2020 but...

[jgf]

8 hours ago, danbiosca said:

 

Full access, uh?

Absolutely.  Steam can install, uninstall, move, or modify at will.  Game forums are full of messages, "I can't find my save games", "where did my profiles go?", etc.;  the answer is always "Steam updated last night, those files were moved to xxx;  these files are now found at yyy".  This means Steam's malware has administrative access to your system.

[jgf]

2 hours ago, chicagorandy said:

Keyboard and mouse IS a challenging approach. My 1st upgrade, before going to a full yoke/throttle/trim/rudder "cockpit" was to get a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro joystick - about $30 USD on Amazon - really improves the sim immersion.

I'm sure whoever designed that joystick has been banned from the computer industry. 

 

How dare they build something that cost less than $30, outperforms those $150 joysticks to which we'd become accustomed, requires no extra software, and works flawlessly for years.

[kingnorris]

5 hours ago, Nels_Anderson said:

 

Should you ever want to use those old CD-ROMS, there are USB CD-ROM drives available, very cheap like around $10 or so.

Good to know! Thank you!

[budreiser]

19 hours ago, jgf said:

I'm sure whoever designed that joystick has been banned from the computer industry. 

 

How dare they build something that cost less than $30, outperforms those $150 joysticks to which we'd become accustomed, requires no extra software, and works flawlessly for years.

Looks great, and "Price is Right". What about throttle control?

[chicagorandy]

Throttle is the rotating lever on the front base of the joystock.

[danbiosca]

20 hours ago, jgf said:

Absolutely.  Steam can install, uninstall, move, or modify at will.  Game forums are full of messages, "I can't find my save games", "where did my profiles go?", etc.;  the answer is always "Steam updated last night, those files were moved to xxx;  these files are now found at yyy".  This means Steam's malware has administrative access to your system.

 

So you're basically saying that Steam management software is malware. Wow.

[Nels_Anderson]

1 hour ago, danbiosca said:

 

So you're basically saying that Steam management software is malware. Wow.

 

That's stretching the meaning of malware, it seems to me...

 

Nothing will ever be perfect, but they must be doing something right to have gathered an estimated 75% market share for online games distribution.

[PhrogPhlyer]

On 5/21/2023 at 11:14 AM, beroun said:

Considering MSFS 2020 but still bit hesitant. Would definitely need new PC with recommended specs and even bandwith upgrade from my provider. 

Also, I am more into flying than into scenery and FS2004 with add-ons (120GB now) suffice. It also offers variety of ad-on aircraft and panels and I enjoy hundreds. 

Have plenty of my own mods also.

So, will eventually go for MSFS 2020 but have it still on hold for now.

I understand your feelings here.

I personally would enjoy the increased ground graphics, as I do much helicopter flying, but...

I have a Core i7 10th gen processor, unfortunately with only 250GB SSD. Currently FSX with tons of add-on scenery and aircraft uses only 42 GB, well under the 150 GB listed as minimum for MSFS.

So for me it would require a new computer or significant upgrades (new SSD).

After purchasing FSX Gold when it was released I have spent $0. Instead I try to pay forward with participation here, with repaints, sharing experience, and offering opinion.

Will I eventually purchase MSFS? Time and my wife's opinion will tell.

I envy the capabilities of all who use MSFS, but I also envy my neighbors new mid-life crisis Lamborghini.

One thing that I hope does not get lost in this discusion, for any of us, is that as long as you are ENJOYING your sim flying, you are doing something right.

 

[jgf]

3 hours ago, danbiosca said:

 

So you're basically saying that Steam management software is malware. Wow.

 

In my opinion, absolutely.  It is software I do not want on my system but is installed alongside other software;  it has the ability to install, delete, move, or edit files without my knowledge, much less my consent;  it has the ability to "phone home" whatever data it wishes.  Does not all that fit the definition of "malware".

 

Now the fans of Steam tell me all this can be disabled.  I do not believe that;  if it can truly be disabled why force me to install it in the first place.

[jgf]

2 hours ago, Nels_Anderson said:

 

That's stretching the meaning of malware, it seems to me...

 

Nothing will ever be perfect, but they must be doing something right to have gathered an estimated 75% market share for online games distribution.

 

What they did "right" was follow the lead of google;  the latter was once just another search engine, but through massive self promotion they convinced an entire generation of computer users they, google, were the only search engine, to the extent "google" is now synonymous with "search"  (with that mindset, since Toyota is the best selling auto worldwide, we do not go driving we go Toyota-ing).  Well, Steam has created a generation of gamers for whom it is the only way to obtain games, and a generation of developers for whom it is the only way to distribute games;  the goal, apparently, is to become a monopoly. 

 

But my main acrimoniousness is for those developers who choose to distribute their games solely via Steam, thus depriving me of the choice of where to spend my money.  Anything else I purchase, from a meal to a new car, I have options of where to buy;  don't like this restaurant?  go to a different one;  don't like that car dealer?  purchase elsewhere.   But these developers are telling me "want my game?  you must buy it here", and my response, "you want my money?  give me options".

 

And to Steam, I wrote them many years ago - You could offer me every game in your catalog for the sum total of one dollar, to download at my discretion, in perpetuity.  But as long as this entails installation of anything other than the games themselves ...thanks, but no thanks.  On the other hand, remove that totalitarian demand of installing unwanted and unnecessary software and you could quadruple, quintuple, sextuple, the price of your games and I would be there now, Paypal in hand.

 

Just my opinion of course.

[loki]

No, that doesn't make Steam malware. By definition malware is software that is doing something malicious to the user's computer, often including hiding what it does. Simply having admin access does not make a piece of software malware. Steam became popular because it offered a good balance between the convenience of buying, installing and updating games for users with fairly un-intrusive DRM to protect against the many software pirates out. Moving saved game files doesn't count as malware as the user did give permission to update the games (whether they understood that is a different topic). If you don't want it to automatically update your games, then disable it. You also don't need to keep it running if you don't want.

 

On the other hand, I think you have a rose coloured glasses view of buying software on CDs and DVDs. Far too many of those had DRM schemes that did actually interfere with the user's computer and did qualify as malware, breaking things like DVD burning software or outright installing rootkits without telling the user at all. Remove any of this DRM, and the game would fail to run no different than removing Steam would (and sometimes it couldn't be easily removed at all once installed). And, yes, some developers still go too far with tying their games to online DRM, but that is the fault of the developer, not Steam itself.

 

If you don't want to buy from Steam, most games are available in multiple online storefronts these days. MSFS itself can be bought through the MS Store or Steam, and most other games can be bought through one or more of Steam, Epic Games, GOG, Ubisoft or EA's online stores.

 

As for Google search, it became the most popular search engine because it was the best one around, and arguably still is.

 

Edit: There are also a number of games on Steam that don't require any DRM to run.

 

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games_on_Steam

[jgf]

1 hour ago, loki said:

including hiding what it does

 

Lol, Steam.  Obviously our concepts of malware differ, you are much more lenient;  for me any activity on my system I do not want, or condone, or initiate, is malware   ...especially if I cannot remove the offending software.  And if I can remove it, why am I forced to accept installation in the first place.

 

Consider an extreme analogy.  You invite me into your home;  I deem that implicit permission to do as I like.  So I install cameras in every room, they are small, unobtrusive, and do no damage.  Naturally you are not happy with this but I tell you "too late, they are installed and cannot be removed;  but if you don't like them you can disable them".  Then why can't you remove them?  And, how do you know "disabling" them merely turns off the little red light and the camera is still functioning.

 

Am I paranoid?  No.  Am I trusting?  No.

[jgf]

BTW, no one take any of this personally.  I do not denigrate anyone for what they buy, or where, or how;  that is none of my business.  Enjoy.  I merely state why I do not deal with some entities.

[danbiosca]

11 hours ago, jgf said:

I do not denigrate anyone for what they buy, or where, or how;  that is none of my business.  Enjoy.  I merely state why I do not deal with some entities.

 

So it's just a matter of personal preferences, as stated many posts above. That's OK.

Anyhow, a better choice of words might be desirable: "Malware" sounds as if you're stating all Steam users around the world have all their personal and/or financial data at risk just by installing the software.