(re)Building a budget AMD desktop "Q-ship" PC?

[BobSeaman]

Some of you may know me from the FS9 and FS2002 forums. :pilot:

 

My new desktop runs great (I'm an FS2002 junkie) but this is centered on my old dependable desktop.

I'm looking up to update it a little in terms of hardware. I've replaced things like RAM, vid card, HD, and power supply over the years and all that is left is the CPU (AMD) and motherboard.

 

Here's the twist, I want to keep 32 bit Vista as the OS. In fact, I want to keep the current hard drive intact aside from updating the drivers for a newer mobo and CPU.

 

Current specs- Its an eMachines desktop from 2009 running an AMD Athlon X2 CPU. Let that sink in for a minute.. :o

Its been a good workhorse since I bought it but its never had anything close to ground breaking performance.

Current GPU is a new but old Asus fanless card, which I intend to keep running.

Current HD is a WD .5Tb SATA drive, no need for an upgrade. It isn't that old and I'm not thinking about adding any new software, anyway. Games are limited to the FS2002 and Jane's Sub Command era.

Current ATX mobo is a bit of a basket case. It can only access 3 Gigs of RAM. :rolleyes: I'd like to max it out to 8 Gigs of DDR3 RAM that I already have waiting.

The Athlon X2 CPU is still chugging away but its getting old and I'm thinking now is the time to update it to something faster with maybe a couple more cores. :D

 

So, the rules are-

 

-Budget parts. Not "used" parts if I can avoid it but defiantly not "boutique".

-Basically, I only need to replace the mobo and (probably) the CPU.

-Must fit the old eMachines ATX case. :cool: CPU should stay an AMD unit so the label doesn't look too out of place. :D

-1080p single monitor video output. Nothing fancy here.

-No overclocking. Think "built to last for this millennium". I want to see how long it will run, not how fast. :cool:

-MUST run 32 bit Windows Vista. In fact, the goal is to plug in the HD with minimal driver updates.

-2 or 4 CPU cores. I'm thinking 4 cores would be fun but any more would be over-kill.

-Minimal fans. One for the case, one for the CPU, one for the power supply.

 

So, any ideas or suggestions? :D

[napamule2]

The MB 'calls' all the shots as to what you can add. So essentially you need a motherboard and a AMD CPU. The folks at Maximum PC (magazine) build budget rigs every month. In Oct 2016 they built a AMD rig. It has a MSI 970 Gaming ATX AM3+ MB ($76) with the AMD FX-832E (3.4 Ghz) ($119). A AMD Radeon RX-460 2 Gb DDR5 GPU ($120) goes well with this setup. Hope this helps a little.

Chuck B

Napamule

[tiger1962]

...and if you really want to use that 8 gigs of ram you'll need a 64-bit OS, the 32 bit Vista can only use 4 gigs unfortunately. You can find new ATX mobo's with CPU's already fitted on ebay for less than £100:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Motherboard-CPU-Combos/131511/i.html?_from=R40&LH_BIN=1&_sop=15&_nkw=amd%20atx&LH_PrefLoc=1&_dcat=131511&Socket%2520Type=Socket%2520AM3&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

[BobSeaman]

Thanks for the quick replies. :D

 

Tiger- Maybe it was wishful thinking, but I thought 32 bit was limited to 8 Gig? No big deal, 4 Gig would still work better than 3 Gig and the left-over RAM could find itself in the newer 64 bit Win10 box. I'm not worried about dropping a CPU into a board, I just finished replacing all of the capacitors in an old wide screen TV. :cool:

 

Chuck- Yeah, I already checked out the board you mentioned. The goal on price is to keep it under $200 but aim closer to $100 (total) if I can. :cool: I'm thinking an older CPU than that FX but I'm also pondering running an APU with the current GPU. :confused:

With older games and software I don't think I need that much horsepower. The other trick comes down to how old a version of DirectX I can get away with in terms of drivers for the mother board vs an OS that's almost old enough to drink in a bar . :confused:

 

Again, thanks guys. :pilot: I had a feeling finding the right motherboard would be tougher than finding the right CPU.

[BobSeaman]

One quick update for Tiger:

 

D'oh! You're right. :o

Six months on a 64 bit OS has turned the old brain to mush when it comes to thinking about a 32 bit OS. "First world problems" and all that.. :rolleyes:

 

The max is 4 Gigs (kinda, its actually 3 Gigs minus video/GPU RAM).

 

My bad, I apologize. ;)

[BobSeaman]

OK, after some quick power shopping on AMZ I found a CPU candidate:

 

AMD A6-5400K APU 3.6Ghz Dual-Core Processor

 

Pro: The price is right. Under $40. Fast but its an APU.

Con: Its an APU. It should be fine but, if anything, it might be too fast or too new for Vista.

Pro: Recommended motherboards priced under $50. I still need to check what I want vs what I need in terms of SATA ports, etc. and whether it would fit the case.

 

One quick thing about the current motherboard: I called it a basket case for several reasons besides RAM (D'oh, again..). Its always had issues with the PCIE socket. Three GPUs over the last 7 years and all have fit loose in the socket. This isn't an issue unless you move the card, or touch the card, or plug or unplug a cable, or look at the card for more than 3 seconds, etc. :rolleyes: While getting a faster CPU would be nice, driving over the current motherboard in the driveway would really make me smile.

[BobSeaman]

OK, I tried another approach just now and got some good results:

 

I went to Amazon and searched using the current CPU. What I was looking for was people who already did an upgrade to an Athlon X2 system and what they used. Rather than looking for what's newest/fastest, I wanted to see more of what was available.

 

The first hit looked tempting:

 

AMD Athlon X2 370K Richland 4.0GHz, Socket FM2, 65W Desktop Processor

priced around $55 for the CPU. Yikes, a 4 Gig clock. :eek: Maybe its over-kill?

 

Other chips are also available in lower price ranges, think on the order of $20 to $30. These other chips will also need a motherboard, but will that be available and could I make it fit the case?

 

Now, at this point I should mention why I started this thread. :D

I wanted to document the process for myself, first. If I wind up falling down a rabbit hole with a project that starts to become, well, crazy it will be easier to back track to a better goal. I also wanted this info available to other folks who are considering rebuilding an older machine rather than just buying something new which shows the pitfalls and the benefits.

 

BTW, its also important to consider "Option C". That's the "do nothing and live with what ya got" option. Option C is always a possibility. The goal may become impossible or too expensive (in terms of money, time, and work ) relative to what it's worth, kinda like dropping a Cosworth DXV racing engine into an old Honda. Is that project really worth the effort?

 

Meanwhile, I need to start planning how to marry my current hard drive and its OS and contents to any new CPU/MB combo.

[napamule2]

You having options A, B, and C is good. I did 1 year of research just like you are doing and my options were A and B. A=Yes, do it. B=No, can't do it. It involved $'s that's why. I finally settled on what I got, plunked down my money and am glad I did it. Yeah I could of fished around for less money, etc. I figured that if I was to spend any money it should be to get something 'future proofed'. The i7 2600K turned out to be just that and it justified the cost so it was the right choice. But in retrospect I have to admit that I lucked out. I bought the parts and assembled them myself. It worked the first time I fired it up and it has been working for 4 years non stop 24/7. I NEVER turn it off (only to clean it out about once every 2 months). Good luck.

Chuck B

Napamule

[il88pp]

https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?293942-Computer-For-FSX

[BobSeaman]

He he heh, yep. I know what you mean. :cool:

 

The machine I'm on now is an i3 running 64 bit Win10.

Like you, I spent a lot of time figuring out what I'd need and how to get it.

I really can't gripe about this rig. It does what I want for going online and has more performance for running old games than they need. The only hassle was that there are some games I like that just won't install in Win10 (DRM or DirectX issues).

 

Unlike you, I didn't build this rig. At the end of the day, I couldn't buy these parts and a Win10 registration for what I paid for a pre-built/pre-loaded unit. :) The cool part is that it worked out for me.

All I added was an older (400-something series?) fanless GPU that gave me more display options. It being cheap ($40-ish) was a bonus. :cool:

 

So, anyway, the idea of doing a "Q Ship" Vista rebuild is a bit of a goof which is why I'm keeping the budget low. It won't see that many hours of use compared to this machine, but it will give back some things I'd like to have.

[BobSeaman]

il88pp ;

This rebuild isn't about cores and threads, at least not exactly. Its about finding hardware that would have been considered "boutique" or over-kill six years ago if it even existed -for cheap today. :cool:

Imagine running Vista on a 4Ghz chip with hyper threading, I'm not sure its even possible but it will be a hoot to see what it does (much faster blue screens, maybe?). :D

[il88pp]

4ghz amd is not same as 4ghz intel. That's reason for the link i posted.

[loki]

Vista will run just fine with lots of cores and hyperthreading, as well as at 4GHz. You shouldn't get any blue screens from the CPU.

[BobSeaman]

Well, one hurdle is mostly over.

I think I've found the replacement motherboard. :rolleyes:

After a lot of looking, I kept coming back to a Gigabyte A series mATX board. The price was pretty good (about $50) and I still have some wiggle room in terms of picking a CPU or APU (but its getting more narrow).

That brings up a quick reminder- be sure what size board you'll need.

The ATX form factor means the board will be approx. 12" X 9.5" while an mATX (sometimes called "mini ATX" or "micro ATX") board is about 9.5" X 9.5".

The smaller board is a LOT more common on newer desktops but definitely be sure to check what you'll be replacing.

 

Once you're sure about the form factor, its time to start narrowing down your options over what kind of and how many input/output options you need, then how many you want, then what you're willing to pay for them. You'll need at least one SATA drive connector but more is better. Actually, experience has taught me that I need at least two SATA connectors dedicated to a single hard drive or SSD. (even if your plans are to stick to a single HD/SSD, you'll still want an extra connector for things like cloning a new drive). Likewise, if you're planning to run two drives, keep three SATA ports dedidcated (three drives, four ports, etc.)

Rear panel (hardwired) options are important at this stage. What kind of display connector(s) do you need? Keep in mind you'll need to see the BIOS set-up screen before you'll be able to plug in a graphics card. If your new board only has an HDMI port, you better be able to plug your monitor into it. The same is true if you only see a "d-sub" connector. Can you use that? Are you planning to plug in a printer at some point? What about a cordless mouse or keyboard? Are there enough USB connectors on the back panel? Can you connect to your modem or hub? Think it through now so you don't kick yourself later. ;)

Finally, take a look at the front panel of the case you're planning to use. Besides the obvious stuff like the power button and optical (CD/DVD) drive, what other doo-dads are there? Card reader slots? USB slots? Audio jacks? How do they connect to the old motherboard? CAN they connect to the new board?

I know it seems obvious and that one motherboard should be able to replace another, but this can get tricky if you're planning to re-use an older tower, especially if that tower was part of a pre-built computer that used a proprietary mother board. Defiantly look at pictures of the new board, don't just read spec sheets. If you have to, draw a sketch of the new board at full size, noting where connection points are located. Then, compare the new board to the old one. Those audio connectors on the front panel won't be worth squat if their wires are too short to make it to the connector on the new motherboard.

 

A little detective work and planning now saves a lot of headaches later. :cool:

 

All in all, this planning phase has been smoother that I thought it would be. I can re-use a lot of the parts from the old system to build something much faster and more powerful. The only surprise was the RAM. That won't be able to get re-used, after all.

[BobSeaman]

4ghz amd is not same as 4ghz intel. That's reason for the link i posted.

 

I understand, I'm posting this from an i3. :cool:

In this case, I get to compare apples to apples. :D

 

The old CPU was an Athlon X2 (4050E) running at 2.1 Ghz since 2009. The new CPU/APU will most likely be running at 4Ghz (I haven't made a final decision yet) or will have double the cores/threads at a slightly faster clock speed. All on a budget that's still under $100. Either way, I'm taking that as a win. :D

 

Keep in mind I'll be running older programs as well and keeping the data on the HD intact without trying to re-install the OS or update it to something newer than Vista . The plan on this re-build was that I really didn't need to maximize performance, its just the icing on the cake.

[BobSeaman]

OK, so what's next?

 

By this point you should have a good idea of what you want to do and what you'll need to buy. Take a break for a couple of days. Think it over. You haven't "pulled the trigger" yet so take some time and step away.

 

Is this still a good idea?

 

I'm not trying to talk you or myself out of going forward. Just be aware that anything can go wrong and you may want to have a back up plan.

[il88pp]

1

Is your current Vista Licence tied to the mainboard?

If it was a pre-built pc that came with that os licence, it's most likely tied to the emainboard. A new mainboard then means, buying a new windows licence.

 

2

32 bit OS.

3gb ram availagle minus amount the videocard takes, minus a bit more,

means just over two 2gb available to windows and fsx.

Fsx will run crap.

 

3

If you are buying a new windows anyway,

-get a good CPU, Mainboard, and Ram. Not 10 year old tech.

That set is what you can define as a new computer.

Things like harddisks, videocard, etc, you can just take along and attach to the new kit.

 

4

You want last years tech at second hand prices.

Sure, fine with that.

But why limit yourself to AMD?? It's not needed.

 

You can just as well get a new Intel chip if you are getting a new mainboard.

 

It won't matter to your HDD or videocard at all.

 

Get somethink like the i5-4670

Pick a mainboard, and Ram. For example a Z97 mainboard.

and Windows (64 bit, so you can use 8gb and more RAM).

 

Price for all that new is only 400 Dollars. It is probably available second hand as well by now.

 

Then you'll have an up to date PC,

FSX will have a full 4gb to use, much better.

The other 4 gb is for Windows, the videocard, and other programs that are running.

The processor speed is 3.3 ghz, but that's sure faster then the 4ghz AMD you're looking at now.

 

To compare the CPU Just Google:

AMD Athlon X2 370K vs i5-4590

 

here are two results of doing that.

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i5-4590-vs-AMD-Athlon-X2-370K

or

http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/152/AMD_Athlon_X2_370K_vs_Intel_Core_i5_i5-4590.html

 

--------------

I would take a step back and concider:

You are now looking at the AMD mainboard, Ram, Chip, second hand, and Windows too most likely.

That would make a total of about $250 most likely.

You'd still have old tech, a low speed CPU, and FSX would still have little RAM available.

 

For another $ 150 you can buy the i5-4590, a z97 mainboard, and 8gb ram, and Windows-64bit. New!!!

That would give you a very solid computer that you could throw everything at. It would improve FSX running a lot.

 

I would not go the $250 route. I'd see that as throwing good money after bad. I'd add another $150 and buy something really good.

 

---------

I think this is a bad time to "push the button". You are only scratching the surface. These decisions take time. Remembeer, you want to buy something that you'll be happy with for a looong time.

[BobSeaman]

In terms of a general discussion, you're right. :)

 

For anyone out there thinking about re-building and updating a system, I want them to find some good info in this thread so the process isn't too daunting.

 

So again, in terms of a general overview you're right and I agree. :)

 

 

That isn't what I'm planning to build. :D

I don't run FSX on my new desktop. I don't even run FS9, I run FS2002 in 64 bit Windows10 off an i3 CPU..

..and its glorious. :pilot:

 

For the old desktop, I realize what I'm planning is risky. At the end of the day the current motherboard is dying. I either fix it (ugh! I just got finished desoldering and replacing the capacitors on an older wide screen TV), replace it, or junk the whole tower after beating the HDs flat with a hammer. I could also re-use most of the parts and install a new CPU and motherboard then do a fresh install of Win10, but I already have that on my i3 desktop. That's also an option for later, assuming I can complete the Vista retro build plan.

 

But the idea is to run an old OS and old games on new(er) hardware and extend the life of what's on those hard drives for another 4-5 years. :)

[BobSeaman]

At this stage I have a good idea what I want to do and what hardware I'll need to buy.

Before I commit any money, I should start doing some prep work to make the swap.

 

One thing I've done in the past is going to make this operation a little less risky. When I bought a larger hard drive a couple of years ago, I cloned the old drive onto the new drive without wiping the contents of the old drive. Then, I just unplugged the old drive's data and power connectors and used them to plug in the new drive. What this did was replace the physical hard drive without making changes to the over-all system. It also gave me a very secure back-up source (I also kept the old and now unplugged drive mounted in the drive bay to protect it from getting zapped or lost in a closet). :) As long as I have two working hard drives and the cloning software (obviously, the contents of the new drive must be able to fit on the old drive- which it does), I can keep making exact copies and shift them between the physical drives. This is why it was also important to make sure whatever motherboard I'm using always has an extra, dedicated, SATA port.

 

In the case of this project, I also get a hard drive to experiment with. :cool:

 

The initial plan goes something like this:

Once I get the new motherboard, RAM, and CPU (still haven't made the final decision yet on what they'll be) slap them together and make sure I can get the new parts to post as far as the BIOS screen.

 

Try plugging in the old, original hard drive and see what happens. :eek: More than likely, the new chip and board won't be that backward compatible. In that case-

 

Go back to the old build and wipe off any drivers from the old motherboard in Windows. Then try it again and see if I'll be able to load the new drivers. If that doesn't work, try making some changes in the registry and remove any special options related to the motherboard or CPU. :eek:

 

Some quick advice about making changes in your registry. If you've never done it before, now is NOT the time to learn!

 

Find a pro to help you. Do NOT rely on forum posts or You Tube videos to provide an answer. Your registry is way too complex for a "one size fits all" answer. You can also look for programs that might make this easier (companies like Acronis and Paragon provide software to make this stuff easier, just don't expect it to be free).

[il88pp]

It sounds like your old PC is a prebuilt. That Windows licence is tied to the mainboard.

 

Changing the harddisk was not a "significant hardware change". After that your Windows licence is still valid.

 

Changing the mainboard, for any different one, is a significant hardware change. The Windows licence will no longer be valid after that.

 

If you hook up the old drive with Windows on it to a different Mainboard and start the PC the desktop may briefly show.

But then the screen goes black. And you see a message: "Windows is not activated"

You can't activate it on that mainboard.

You can click "Ignore" but after a few minutes you see that screen again.

And after two or three days, Windows will not start at all anymore.

 

You will need to by a new copy of Windows. I doubt new copies of Vista are still for sale.

 

 

You will of course need the chipset, USB, and audio and such drivers for the new Mobo.

You will have to do that manually. No version of Windows does that for you.

You will need to get them from the site of the mainboard manufacturer. Expecially when buying a second hand Mainboard a driver disk is likely not included.

Even more problematic, if you get an old mainboard (5+ years is old) there is a good chance the drivers will no longer be offered by the mainboard manufaturer either.

That's why going with a newer mainboard is the better option.

 

 

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy second hand. Just buy a second hand i5 4590 or something instead, and a Z97 mainboard.

You are much more likely to still find drivers if the mainboard is 3 years old then when it is 7 years old.

 

You won't be able to use your old Win Vista OEM licence on a new mainboard anyway. Whichever one you decide to get.

With a new OS, you might as well get some good hardware.

 

If you realy insist on keeping Vista, you'll have to either keep using the old mainboard, or you have to buy a new WinVista licence for the new PC.

But the OS you choose is independent of the hardware. Using Vista doesn't mean you need to get older hardware.

The Intel setup I suggested may be newer, but it won't be much ore expensive second hand.

[comtedeloach]

Call Microsoft, they can fix you up. The windows license is still valid after you replace every component in your computer including the case. It just has to be reregistered and you can't use that license on two computers if you don't have multiple licenses.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[alaskancrab]

Call Microsoft, they can fix you up. The windows license is still valid after you replace every component in your computer including the case. It just has to be reregistered and you can't use that license on two computers if you don't have multiple licenses.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

That's only true for the Retail version of Vista... not the OEM.

[BobSeaman]

il88pp;

I think I've only mentioned it like eight times or so, I'm not planning to buy second hand or used parts. :)

The parts I'm re-using were bought new and not that long ago. I know they're good because they're sitting in front of me. That was part of the plan back when I bought them.

 

My worst case would be to buy factory refurbished parts and that would only happen if there was no other alternative.

 

Think it through for a minute. Its usually a knock that AMD doesn't update its products or process (drivers) as much as Intel. I'm counting on that as an advantage in this project. :)

[il88pp]

You said earlier that you did not have the parts. You said you were going to buy a new motherboard.

 

If you do you will need a new copy of Windows.

 

Just a attaching the old drive and using that Windows will not work.

[BobSeaman]

alaskancrab and comtedeloach;

 

You've brought up some very good points which have to be considered for any rebuild involving a motherboard. That's why its a good idea to look at all of your options right from the start. If it turns out that I'd have to "refurbish" the old registration key by throwing money at M$, I could do that but I'm not sure I'm ready to admit defeat yet. :)

 

While we're on the topic, I need to do some prep work involving keys. Its a good idea to have your product registrations and keys written down NOW so you can find them later.

 

If you've toured your Windows registry in the past, you may have a good idea where to find them. If not, there are freeware and payware utilities available on-line that can search your registry and report all of the keys it finds. Either way, make sure you can read them (accuracy really counts, don't assume you can tell the difference between an underscore and a space, make sure NOW you can tell them apart) before you throw your old parts in the trash bin. Be sure you know the difference between a software registration and its key.