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Thread: Wide turning circle of two AI tail draggers

  1. #1

    Default Wide turning circle of two AI tail draggers

    Hi all,

    Two of my AI tail draggers, a Piper Cub and a Tiger Moth, don't seem to be able to make some of the tighter turns on taxiways on their way to the runway. They turn far too wide, eventually do make it to the runway start positions, followed by correct take offs, etc ... but ... only after taxiing straight through some of the addon airfield's gas pumps and it's cafe/restaurant. Not very realistic looking, to say the least.

    It's not possible to edit the taxiway turns themselves, e.g. via the airfield's Afcad/ADE file, because they are all part of the airfield's ground scenery.

    I've been editing both (contact point) turning angles, ranging between 40 and 180 degrees, but to no avail. I even tried editing their differential braking entries but alas, still no go. The problem seems structural.

    Ideas and/or solutions anyone ?

    Regards and I thank you in advance.

    Hans

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Vale of the White Horse
    Posts
    381

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    The Tiger normally does not have any brakes, & has a skid on the tail, so is very sluggish on tarmac & in certain crosswinds impossible to go where you want it, which is why you see wingmen helping on the ground. One has to blip the throttle to get some air passing over the rudder, so if one must try to get it to turn then you would need to look into the .air file, or give it more authority to the rudder. Not sure about the Cub, could be similar rudder/ airflow problem when tail down.
    Keith

  3. #3

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    I have not found a way to make AI taildraggers taxi better than they do, although the default Piper Cub is useless - I use a replacement flyable flight dynamics package (available most places) for that. Even so, it is not perfect.
    Tom Gibson

    CalClassic Propliner Page: http://www.calclassic.com

  4. #4

    Default

    Thanks guys for your reactions.

    I already had the feeling that the problem I described would be more or less structural, so I'm now looking for a couple of AI wingmen positioned at strategic points at sharp taxiway corners !!! LOL.

    I guess that for the airfield in question the only real solution will be to replace both AI tail draggers by tricycle gear AIs.

    Thanks again.

    Hans

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Boca Raton, Florida, USA.
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Hi,

    1. What Piper ZIP file is it

    2. Did you check the Contact Points ?

    3. My Piper does it PERFECT in AI !

    My Contact Points are:

    1. Mains are 1.0 feet in front of the COG / Reference Line Wheel radius is 0.7,

    the Tail wheel is -15.8 wheel Radius is 0.3


    G. Kirschstein
    [email protected]

    P. S. My observation with OTHER Taildragger's is when the Tail wheel is WRONGLY positioned than the
    wide turn.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote: '...when the Tail wheel is WRONGLY positioned...'. EXACTLY right! If you would move the tail gear or skid from -15.800 to -14.800 and then -13.800 you would SEE the difference. That simple. It might 'look' funny when it turns but this adjustment will get the job done.
    Chuck B
    Napamule
    i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D. FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).

  7. #7

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    Hey there napamule2,

    You hit the nail (or my AI Piper Cub) right on it's head. I even needed to move it's tail wheel position forward to -10 but also it's height to -2.55. It now at least "drives" itself correctly and without needing the help of any AI wingmen.

    Now for my AI Tiger Moth which I expect to be able to correct in the same way.

    Thanks.

    Hans

  8. #8

    Default

    Hey Hans,
    Glad it worked for you. Somtimes the solution to a hard or difficult characteristic boils down to something simple. All you need it the knowledge, by experience, to 'figure' it (the reason) out. Cheers. Stay Safe.
    Chuck B
    i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D. FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).

  9. #9

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    Hey Chuck and Hans,

    this case is very interesting for me. I have tried to change the contact points for the default FSX Piper_3 Cub for AI-use, but gave up as somebody told me this would be impossible.

    Now I changed the
    [contact_points]
    point.0=1, -15.00, 0.0, -1.05, 1800, 0, 0.238, 60.0, 0.300, 2.5, 0.40, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 (this is default) to

    [contact_points]
    point.0=1, -10.00, 0.0, -2.55, 1800, 0, 0.238, 60.0, 0.300, 2.5, 0.40, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0

    Perhaps this wasn't the right way because there was no difference

    Then I changed the 'empty_weight_yaw_MOI' from default 642.2 to 3000 as I have done at some other aircrafts. And now it works!

    Maybe your way works only for FS9 and I play with FSX.
    Last edited by Flattermann; 05-29-2020 at 12:29 PM.
    happy landings! Christian
    Intel i5-6600K CPU @ 3.50GHZ, 4 Kerne, 16 GB
    MSI RX 480; M. SATA WD 500 GB;
    WD RED PRO 2TB Win 10, 64 bit; FSX Gold Acc.

  10. #10

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    Christian.

    Chuck's solution was not really "As Real As It Gets" but it certainly worked in my FS9 and that's the most important, especially when it concerns eye candy type AI aircraft during their "driving" along sharp cornered taxiways on juicy little addon airfields. However, for the flyable versions of the same light aircraft it remains a totally different matter and you then actually need to keep them on the taxiway center lines yourself, with or without differential brakes and/or effective rudders, as Keith correctly describes.

    Anyway, I'm happy that you have also found a solution for the same problem in FSX, albeit a different one. However, your solution could also influence your AI aircraft's flight characteristics.
    Are you sure your AI aircraft still flies correctly ? To test this you could take off and fly (in formation) behind it until it lands correctly at it's "flight planned" destination airfield. I've done this myself on a number of occasions but only when certain AI aircraft, strangely enough, did not arrive at their destination airfields because.e.g. they crashed somewhere along their routes and for different reasons.

    Regards

    Hans

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