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Thread: Navigation question

  1. #1

    Default Navigation question

    I have a navigation question that I have been thinking and tried for so long time, but can not figuered out how I handle this.

    No GPS, no autopilot.

    I fly straight out for example RWY 32 heading 312 until reaching 800ft the turn left to intercept waypoint NU700 and the intercept radial 155 to waypoint Dedit.

    This is Sid Dedit1l at UME (ESNU) VOR 114.25 airport.

    How do I reach waypoint NU700 and Waypoint Dedit without GPS. That will say hands on. Like Pilots did in the old days.

    https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/Vie...2_ESNU_4-19_en
    Regards

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Westminster, CO
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    6,969

    Default

    The quick answer is: You don't. Pilots in the old days didn't have those (or any) waypoints.

    All those waypoints are described only by the GPS. You will either need radar guidance, another NAV radio mechanism (VOR, NDB), or some visual object to spot on the ground in order to get into the general area, or maybe you can just eyeball it. But specifically where are you trying to go, since those waypoints don't have any use as a destination, only as an intermediate navigation checkpoint?

    Incidentally, that 155º is not a radial (nothing to measure from), it's just a magnetic course.

    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  3. #3

    Default

    I am going on a flight ESNU to ESSA Dedit,Bodri,Sipri,Hmr, ESSA. Above departure is SID Dedit1L.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Westminster, CO
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    If you're using a departure procedure, then you'll need the GPS. So instead, if you're wanting to do it the "old way," then you'll need to totally re-plan the flight using whatever is available to you in terms of NDB, VOR, pilotage (that is, looking outside and reading a chart), or dead reckoning.

    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    2,362

    Default

    There is a gauge here (I've forgotten the name) which allows you to navigate as many pilots did in the thirties (and some still do)- basic geometry, triangulating your position from broadcast radio stations. It includes a vintage AM radio with a directional antenna you rotate via a knob and numerous stations around the US (it is fairly easy to add stations anywhere you want them).

    To find where you are, tune into a station and rotate the antenna for strongest signal, note the direction, in degrees, of the antenna; fly ten minutes or so and repeat. With your charts and a protractor draw the triangle created by your flight distance (from time and speed) and the two angles read from the antenna. This shows your current position. Likewise if you want to find a certain spot on the map, plot your course over, or near, that point; find a broadcast station off to either side of that course and draw a line from it to the point on your course you want to locate. Read the angle where those lines intersect, tune that station, set the antenna to that angle and monitor the signal strength as you fly; when the signal is strongest you are over that point on the map.

    As in real life there is some "wiggle room" with this system since you will rarely know the exact location of the transmitting antenna, but it gets you within visual range of your destination, where the old Mk1 eyeball takes over.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lnuss View Post
    If you're using a departure procedure, then you'll need the GPS. So instead, if you're wanting to do it the "old way," then you'll need to totally re-plan the flight using whatever is available to you in terms of NDB, VOR, pilotage (that is, looking outside and reading a chart), or dead reckoning.
    I agree! In fact in the 60's when flying in choppers, you often couldn't receive even the VOR signal when very far from the station. We didn't fly high enough to beat the curvature of the earth and those high frequency signals don't "bend" like low freq. ones do!

    However we did use the NDB a lot, especially at night. Those "Clear Channel" radio stations, which transmitted very low frequency, long range AM radio signals like WLS, WHAS, etc would wind around all the hills and hollows. You just dial in and catch your angle from say Chicago, then Louisville, New Orleans, or wherever you could get a signal and do your triangulation. It worked pretty darn accurately! Give or take several mies of course!!

    During daytime when the AM radio airwaves are full of low power stations and Clear Channel stations are on low power as well, it was much tougher. For one thing, who knows where most of those low power stations are!!??

    That's when your M1A eyeball came into play. You'd check your VFR Supplement, then find obvious highways and/or rail lines and follow them. (That was the chopper version of IFR! "I Fly Roads!")

    Another route info source was the local water towers!! I can't tell you how many times we've flown around water towers to find a town name on them, then tried to find a town with that name on our charts!! Sadly, even the best sim software I've bought doesn't provide the water towers we could find all over the US back in the day.

    Good luck with your efforts!! It's doing something different than just letting the machine fly itself that makes simming so interesting to me!!

    Michael
    Last edited by Rupert; 11-26-2019 at 01:37 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Klammath Falls, OR
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    4,085

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    Awwwww, c'mon, Michael.
    You just used the radio stations so you could listen to "THE Game" to while away the time on those long night flights
    AM stations are still, to this day, a great source for "THE Game", btw...

    Oh, just so you know, AM does not really stand for Amplitude Modulation, like the public is usually told. It really stands for Advanced Magic. If you run the math, it just doesn't work, but there it is, working just fine. Kinda like the whole bumble bee thing...

    Have fun all!
    Pat☺

    Had a thought...then there was the smell of something burning, and sparks, and then a big fire, and then the lights went out! I guess I better not do that again!
    Sgt, USMC, 10 years proud service, Inactive reserve now

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