Slips and skids, and their relationship to bicycle riding

Hi everyone,

First, let me reiterate something that I should know, but I want to make sure.

If you use too much rudder, that causes a skid. And that manifests itself in the turn coordinator by the ball's being on the outside of the turn. (So, for example, if you do a left turn with too much rudder -- or only rudder -- the ball will be on the right side of the turn coordinator.) Do I have everything correct so far?

And if you use too much aileron, that causes a slip. In the turn coordinator, a slip results in the ball's being on the inside of the turn. (So, for example, if you do a left turn with too much aileron -- or only aileron -- the ball will be on the left side of the turn coordinator.) Correct so far?

So now to the bicycle. If you make a turn using too much handlebar action -- or only the handlebars -- is that the equivalent of a skid? And if you make a turn by leaning inside the turn too much and not using enough handlebar action -- or only leaning -- is that the equivalent of a slip?

Thank you for your consideration.

Stanley

The bike analogy is no good -- it doesn't slip or skid in the way an aircraft does, and your description just describes various turns. You bank a bike by momentarily turning the handlebars in the direction opposite the way you want to turn (disregarding hands off), then immediately move them the other way to control the turn. You're using gyroscopic precession to make the bike turn. A skid on a bike is the tire leaving rubber. There is no slip.

If you use too much rudder, that causes a skid.

Only if it's the same direction as the aileron.

And if you use too much aileron, that causes a slip.

No.

Lets simplify: crossed controls (opposite aileron and rudder) gives a slip, while too much rudder in the same direction as the ailerons is a skid.

The ball, when not centered, will be on the opposite side from the rudder applies, so the adage which most student pilots have heard again and again is "step on the ball" to correct slip or skid. In either case, the aircraft is going sideways, rather than straight through the air.

Hands off is the same.

You use the inner thigh to slightly nudge the bike and thus the bars right to turn left.

It's a nearly imperceptible action

+1

 

That's exactly why my father used to say: flying is easier than riding a bicyle.

If you slip or skid in a turn in a plane it will still turn, although the turn will be ugly.

If you slip or skid in a turn with a bicycle you will crash.

I agree wholeheartedly. As a bike instructor and a private pilot the ease with which you can fly in 4 dimensions (time is also massively important in aircraft) is noticeably simpler than learning to control a motorcycle (I think bicycles are an analogy better for gliders than powered aircraft). At least in the early stages...:pilot:

The difference is how much greater the interaction is in aircraft and it's constantly changing reaction - the plane is only fixed to the ground when it's tied down, so there's far less natural stability.

The important distinction is that, until very recently the pilot (and co-pilot, and occasionally flight engineer) managed all the responses to inside and outside factors, whereas a bicyclist merely needs to keep balance, pedals moving and eyes out for hazards while navigating in a flat plane with wheels on terra firma.

Modern tech such as GPS navigation, FADEC, autopilots, weather information, monitoring and alerting systems have made things far easier on the face of it, but all require learning to get the best from them.

This is where the sim at our flying club has enhanced `learning` (Sssh! mustn't call it a `training tool`, the authorities might be listening).

But it's bloody terrible at teaching people how to fly. The only thing worse is a forum!

Best advice I give to all simmers? At the very least go for a sample flight in a light aircraft at your local airfield and make sure you take the controls alongside an instructor. It will show you how inaccurate the sim actually is, whilst confirming how good the sim can be at teaching you the basics of what the controls actually DO, when worked together.

But yes, the plain and simple truth is that flying a plane is easy, once you understand the basics. The difficult parts come later - navigating, condition monitoring (aircraft systems and weather) and making the right decisions based upon circumstances. Into which `stepping on the ball` is but one of a myriad of decisions needing to be made in an accurate - and ongoing - manner to ensure you, your plane, and its passengers dont fall out of the sky, arrive at the destination safe and sound - having enjoyed the trip.

So to our OP I say, rudder manages slips and skids, but yes ailerons impact as well. As indeed do elevators once you pass a certain `angle of dangle`. Slips and skids are also changed by other forces such as precession and torque reaction, and by outside factors like the weather, as well as the fundamental characteristics of the aircraft - Cirrus, as a single example, interconnect ailerons and rudder to aid the pilot in managing a balanced turn. Hardly need to use the pedals in normal flight for standard rate turns. Yaw Dampers are fitted to many aircraft to do the same thing, but only through rudder use alone.

There you go: Mind blown with too much information already, and something simple becomes complicated!

Although understanding the bicycle concept involves counter-steering is something that only becomes complicated to the average rider once it's explained to them!

Great question to begin with, great responses already: Let's see how this topic develops. :cool:

Sounds to me like Stanley never rode a bike in wet weather or over sand or on ice and THEN tried to turn AND brake. You get slip, slide, skid and spin if you do it right. So much the same 'happens' when flying 'crazy' and then try using the 'ball'.

Chuck B

Napamule

Sounds to me like Stanley never rode a bike in wet weather or over sand or on ice and THEN tried to turn AND brake. You get slip, slide, skid and spin if you do it right. So much the same 'happens' when flying 'crazy' and then try using the 'ball'.

Chuck B

Napamule

They're still different animals -- no real comparison. The slips and skids you refer to on bikes are totally different from the way an airplane does them. Terminology can be confusing when the same word is used for two (or more) different things. Just look at the word stall...

They're still different animals -- no real comparison. The slips and skids you refer to on bikes are totally different from the way an airplane does them. Terminology can be confusing when the same word is used for two (or more) different things. Just look at the word stall...

The nearest analogy might be riding a bicycle...backwards.:rolleyes: