SOCHI STAR?

[MIKE MOIR]

Sochi Airport, URSS, is in south-west Russia sandwiched between the Black Sea and the Caucasus Mountains which rapidly rise to over 10,000ft.  It has two runways designated 02/20 and 06/24.  By default, ATC use 02 for landings and take-offs.  This is not good as there is no parallel taxiway to 02/20, so aircraft cleared for take-off have a long backtrack, which tends to screw up landing traffic.  Anyhow, in real life they usually use 02 for landing and 24 for take-off.  So both take-offs and landings are over the sea, because of the proximity of high terrain.  I know that the closed for take-off and closed for landing using AFCAD only works when the two runways are parallel, or nearly so. But I know there is a 'star' technique in which a series of very short and very narrow fake runways are inserted, all closed for take-off and landing, between the two real runways, presumably to fool ATC into believing all the runways are nearly parallel,  Do any of you clever guys know whether this could be used at Sochi?  And what would the location of the fake runways be (AFCAD needs Lat/Long for each)?  I just fancied the challenge of making Sochi as in real life.

[Tom Gibson]

Hi,

 

Go to Lists/Runways, and then click on the Add XWind button to add a small fake runway.  Move it in the list where you need it, between the two real runways.  Set this runway heading 7 degrees greater/smaller than the one above, depending on the heading of the real runway below it.  Repeat until you reach the other runway, with all runways listed as being within 7 degrees of each other (or less).

 

Hope this helps,

[beroun]

Hi Mike,

 

As Tom mentioned use ADE to add XWind runways. I do these 7.5 degrees apart.

As examples, have done it at JFK to make 4/22s and 13/31s parallel and

in Prague even all three parallel. (Oh, if spotted am also using 4/22 in Prague which is actually closed)

I did this at many airports. It is great, because ATC offers you all the connected runways and AI use all.

The pictures should give you idea on how to do it. Any questions, do not hesitate to message me.

Just word of caution, AI might get stuck taxiing, so you might have to fiddle with the taxiways a bit.

 

Cheers,

Peter Bendl

[johnhinson]

6 hours ago, beroun said:

It is great, because ATC offers you all the connected runways and AI use all.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This method is "great" until an aircraft using a conflicting runway to you hurtles into you . . .

And listening to ATIS taking its time reciting dozens of unusable non-existent runways sounds bizarre.

 

Each to one's own taste, but users should be aware this method is not perfect.

John

[beroun]

3 hours ago, johnhinson said:

This method is "great" until an aircraft using a conflicting runway to you hurtles into you . . .

And listening to ATIS taking its time reciting dozens of unusable non-existent runways sounds bizarre.

Hi John.

Got dozens of airports set this way and do not ever recall ATC mentioning the XWind ice runways.

On aircraft hurtling to you: Yes this might happen but is negligible. To the contrary this setup helps the landing congestion - AI aircraft following each other

on landing (kamikaze) since more runways are in use.

Cheers

Peter

[johnhinson]

Hi Peter,

 

Not ATC, but ATIS - but I expect a lot of people don't use it.

I have had my nose taken off by an AI aircraft taking off whilst I was landing, but that shouldn't happen at Sochi as I don't think the runways conflict.

Best regards,

 

John

[beroun]

Hi John/Mike

 

Actually have just realized that I fiddled with Sochi during the Olympics there - and did the parallel - quite simple with 2/20 and 6/24 (picture).

Have also opened 20/24 for landing but needed to do turn ILSs (My tutorial below refers) and also one flat to avoid the mountain peaks. Quite interesting to watch the AI land there.

https://www.flightsim.com/files/file/206636-fs2004-tutorial-to-turn-ils-approaches-using-ade/

 

Cheers

Peter

PS, More than willing to zip it over in email. Mike?

 

[MIKE MOIR]

Thanks for your very useful comments, guys!  I know I should have used ADE....   But I found guideless from FSDeveloper for using AFCAD.  I constructed 4 fake runways between 02 and 20 and I think I got all the numbers right.  I used the Fault Finder in AFCAD and was surprised that all the segments in 02/20 and 06/24 were labelled as BLANK.  Soon sorted that, and lo and behold ATC are using different runways for landing and take-off.  Rwy 24 for take-off, but 20 for landing, even though 20 is marked as closed for landing and take-off!  I have added ILS to 02, but using AFCAD, and of course ATC don't recognise that.  Do you think it would make any difference to open URSS in ADE and save it?

[beroun]

Hi. ATC does not recognize ILSs saved in EFCAD.. Needs to be saved in ADE!  Also designating one runway open and closed in opposite direction does not guarantee ATC will comply. Wind apparently plays an overruling role in this. I usually just close both ends or leave both open. 
Also the parallels should be done in ADE where you can also do the runway markings better. 
Dont forget to delete airpot afcad bgl after you compile the ADE one!
 

 

[MIKE MOIR]

Thanks, Peter.  I have an AIG star/crosswind AFCAD for Beirut (OLBA).  The take-off runway used by ATC seems to depend also on where the aircraft is parked!  I've witnessed one plane parked on the east side of the terminal cleared for take off on 03 at the same time as another, which was parked on the west side, cleared for take off on17 - on collision course - scary.....   I've saved the Sochi AFCAD in ADE9, but it's saved as an ad4 file.  It's ages since I used ADE9, and feel very ignorant - how do you save it as a bgl for copying into Addon Scenery\Scenery???  I see you must have added ILS to rwy 20 - I've done the same - 3.5 degree glide slope!

[johnhinson]

File > Compile Airport

or Control-C

 

Best regards,

 

John

 

PS - Aircraft usually are sent to the nearest runway to their parking spot.

[MIKE MOIR]

Thanks, John.  I suspect AI aircraft will be sent to the nearest runway for landing?  So far, I've only seen AI aircraft from Russia tumble down over the Caucasus to r/w 20.  I'll check where aircraft from Dubai and Jeddah are directed!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[johnhinson]

4 hours ago, MIKE MOIR said:

I suspect AI aircraft will be sent to the nearest runway for landing?

Yes, that's typical. There are other factors, such as runway length. 

John

[MIKE MOIR]

Well, didn't quite achieve what I wanted to do with Sochi.  Although ATC use r/w 24 for take offs (correct) they are hell-bent on using r/w 20 for landing, no alternative given, from whatever direction I or AI aircraft are coming from.  There are no published STARs for 20 (or 24) and no published SIDs for 02 or 06.  Crossing the Caucasus Mountains at 12,000ft then descending in 25nm to r/w 20 means a scary dive, flaps and gear down at too high a speed....   Anyhow, it's all good fun!  This has been a learning experience, and even after 18 years flying FS2004 I'm still learning, and would never think of 'graduating' to later versions!  As usual, thanks for your help.  Maybe Sochi was a bad airport to try star/crosswind technique; somewhere like Tunis, far from high terrain would have been easier!

[beroun]

Hi Mike, See your PM.

[hjwalter]

Would just changing the wind direction and strength not help if this is saved with all at SOCH saved departure flights ?

 

Hans

[PhrogPhlyer]

To me, in reviewing the ADE information and the actual approach plates for URSS, none of this makes any sense.

If FS was basing any of the arrivals on real world charts, there would be NO fixed wing landings on 20 or 24.

All the instrument approaches are for 04 or 06, with no circling weather depicted, meaning, no circling to land on 20 or 24.

This is due to multiple terrain obstructions NE of the field.

And the missed approaches are for a climbing turn ( away from those obstacles).

Also there are no approach lighting systems nor VASI/PAPI for 20 or 24.

And the extensive airport remark data pages make no reference to VFR or IFR landing on 20 or 24, only take offs.

So, the landings on 20 may be an FS default coding (airport or traffic) with no bearing on real world operations and possibly non-adjustable with ADE.

You even stated that " By default, ATC use 02 for landings and take-offs." which is not what apparently happens at the actual airfield.

This is just a guess on what is happening.

I do hope you find a way to make this work appropriately, i.e. TO/Dpt = 20/24, Aprch/Lnd = 04/06.

 

Ref: https://opennav.com/airport/URSS

 

[johnhinson]

I can confirm that no airports in FS use real-world data for runway usage - the software programming is entirely based on runway length, and wind direction, plus a few other quirks which I don't really understand - it is those quirks which sometimes prevent us from achieving what is desirable. It does not take into account nearby high ground either.

 

If I remember rightly, the default ATC will let you get away with landing at the opposite end of the given runway and still give you instructions after landing. I can't be certain I have remembered that correctly as for many years I have used an add-on ATC system which will let you close or open runways as required (or indeed request a specific runway) for the player aircraft although AI will still operate the way FS2004 intends. That avoids the need for the "STAR" runway system, though.

 

John

[PhrogPhlyer]

John,

Thanks for the clarification on how FS functions. 

One of the challenges of FS is working to make it as real as we the uses want it to be.

 

[MIKE MOIR]

What you guys are saying is all absolutely correct.  In the real airport, landings are always on the ILS to 02 and take-offs are always on 24, although heavier aircraft can request landing on the ILS for 06 which apparently has a higher load-bearing capability.  Even with the star technique, ATC don't play game....  What ATC system are you using, John, which allows you to close runways?

Mike