The Next Challenge...

[PhrogPhlyer]

48 minutes ago, Sirrus said:

Real world races such as the MacRobertson Race, the Sydney -London record attempts, and the London - Cape Town record attempts all used such a system.

 

Obviously it would an adjudicator who knew (-1) + (+1) =0.

I totally agree with this for real world racing.

But remember, the intent of the last event's timing was to see how close you got to your planned timing for each leg, so a plus or minus was still not what you planned.

This was discussed and agreed upon before the Rt 66 Rally guidelines were published.

That was for the last event, what ever it is decided for this one is what we will all follow.

[PhrogPhlyer]

3 hours ago, ViperPilot2 said:

Also, clarification as to the Rally/Race Format & Timing might be needed

I'm fine either way, but I thought one of the things discussed earlier in this thread was to make this more of an adventure, not a race. Experiences and photos along the way were the intent. Timing and competition were to be minimal.

[jgf]

1 hour ago, Sirrus said:

It jars a little with real world timing where if you are ahead of your ETA, i.e. early, then your V would be negative; correspondingly if you were behind your ETA, then your V would be positive.  So it would allow some competitors to make up time and results would be much closer.

 

Real world races such as the MacRobertson Race, the Sydney -London record attempts, and the London - Cape Town record attempts all used such a system.

 

Obviously it would an adjudicator who knew (-1) + (+1) =0.

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Our system was based on a discussion of road rallies, where the point is to hit each waypoint within a certain window, being too early or too late costs points.  And we've since discussed if competition is secondary to just having fun and sharing experiences. 

 

But everyone has a voice here, and all are invited to submit ideas for flights.

[Sirrus]

37 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

I'm fine either way, but I thought one of the things discussed earlier in this thread was to make this more of an adventure, not a race. Experiences and photos along the way were the intent. Timing and competition were to be minimal.

 

...hence the "Rally" name, which is still OK with me. It was just a suggestion to attract more entrants.

 

I have no objection to using PP's timing on this rally.

 

We should also agree that all entrants should finish, no matter how long it takes. (That may be too long but you get the idea.)

 

The only snag I can see with Australia is...

...you have to be either a Holden person or a Ford person. Is that a Chevy 3100 with my (rented) F150?

[Bossspecops]

4 hours ago, TomPenDragon said:

 

Thanks, guys!  Most of the credit goes to Dave Maltby - I don't know how "realistic" the flight model for the HS-121 is, but few planes of any size fly as sweet.  My biggest challenge flying her is the HSI - I find myself constantly trying to roll her to put the blue part on top and the brown on the bottom.

 

 

I'm with you 100% there, Dave Maltby builds a superb FS model, and his cockpits are divine! I flew his Tridents, VC10s and BAC 1-11s quite a bit with my old VA and never had any problems with them. Did you try the Cat III autoland? The Trident was the first aircraft certified to use it. 

 

But in the RW the Trident was called 'The Ground Gripper' and it wasn't for nothing either! They really took some getting off,, specially the 1s and 2s. With the Trident 3 there was an extra engine to play with, albeit a small one, and that helped a lot. I used to fly pax aboard the 1s and 2s quite a bit in the 70s from UK to Berlin, and they had to load limit the pax numbers leaving Berlin as Tempelhof's runways just weren't long enough for the Grippers! 

 

But they look great, specially in the Speedjack scheme. 

 

On other things, I did my first repaint for DECADES tonight, for another Scottish Aviation STOL aeroplane, the Pioneer, the Twin Pin's smaller brother. The only one I could find is a pretty old Mike Stone model that looks a tad crude by FSX standards but it flies like a 1960s Lysander. Stall speed is 35 kts! 

 

All the colour schemes available are wrong for an RAF bird, and I used to watch them fly in and out of RAF Benson when we lived there in the late 50s, so I did a repaint of one in the schemes of the period and I'm pretty pleased with it. XL700 was the RAF's first Pioneer, you could say it was a pioneer Pioneer............

 

OK, I know, coat, hat etc................ 

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, Sirrus said:

Is that a Chevy 3100 with my (rented) F150?

Great pic! I recognize that place, lol. Glad the rest stop is well stocked with cold beverages and bad jokes.

[PhrogPhlyer]

After all those hours and hours beating along at 135-140 mph in theDragonfly, I wasn't looking forward to another loooong routing for a rally. But, maybe a vintage Vampire entry from the RAAF might cut the time down considerably.

Looks like I just missed seeing Sirrus.

 

[ViperPilot2]

The only reason I mentioned anything regarding Timing and the Rules is because... no one mentioned it in the recent Convo (the last four Pages), and I thought I would ask just to clarify. I have no objection if it's either a Timed event or a Rally.

[PhrogPhlyer]

2 hours ago, ViperPilot2 said:

I have no objection if it's either a Timed event or a Rally.

I'll go with the consensus of people here.

[Airbasil_1]

9 hours ago, ViperPilot2 said:

The only reason I mentioned anything regarding Timing and the Rules is because...  I have no objection if it's either a Timed event or a Rally.

 

As long as it wouldn't be too long (max. 2 or 3 stops, max. four legs or rather doable in a single direct Flight - that would be optimal) and as long as it includes allready available Scenery
(either Free or Payware but as accurate and close to the current date, not from the 60's or 70's), as I am not a fan of default Airports of FS9 and as I like showing off my FS9 "as real as it gets",
I'd be in for it as well… wether it 'll be timed or a ralley. 

[MAD1]

To JSMR who said 'My wife thinks I’m crazy.', you are, by definition, we all are, by definition!

[defaid]

14 hours ago, Sirrus said:

It jars a little with real world timing where if you are ahead of your ETA, i.e. early, then your V would be negative; correspondingly if you were behind your ETA, then your V would be positive.  So it would allow some competitors to make up time and results would be much closer.

 

13 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

But remember, the intent of the last event's timing was to see how close you got to your planned timing for each leg, so a plus or minus was still not what you planned.

 

13 hours ago, jgf said:

Our system was based on a discussion of road rallies, where the point is to hit each waypoint within a certain window, being too early or too late costs points.  And we've since discussed if competition is secondary to just having fun and sharing experiences. 

 

Just dropped into this so forgive me if I missed context.

 

In UK vintage road rallies, special stages are done on a regularity basis where penalties are equal for arriving early or late. Thus 1 minute early followed by one minute late results in a two minute overall penalty. I think it's done to ensure a consistent adherence to national speed limits. It's also a lot more taxing for both driver & navigator.

 

I think, if you plan 23 minutes, getting there in 22 should also be a fail. In these planned & timed challenges, the question is only one of whether the sum time is for a leg/stage or for the entire course.

 

Overall course seems reasonable to me: if someone has a busy evening they can rip through one leg in the knowledge that they can take it easy on the next. It also means there's more scope for sightseeing while making up time on the dull sections. Personally though, and regardless of how the challenge is run, I'll probably have a private competition with myself on a per-leg basis.

 

D

[Bossspecops]

29 minutes ago, defaid said:

Overall course seems reasonable to me: if someone has a busy evening they can rip through one leg in the knowledge that they can take it easy on the next. It also means there's more scope for sightseeing while making up time on the dull sections. Personally though, and regardless of how the challenge is run, I'll probably have a private competition with myself on a per-leg basis.

 

 

Hm, yes, makes some sort of sense. 

 

When I spotted the Ford Proving Ground in Arizona on the Route 66 Rally I just HAD to divert to take a look at it, and spent much time tweaking the throttle settings afterwards to try and minimise my time variation. Having some 'built-in' flexibility on subsequent Legs would have been handy. 

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, defaid said:

more scope for sightseeing while making up time on the dull sections.

 

1 hour ago, Bossspecops said:

When I spotted the Ford Proving Ground in Arizona on the Route 66 Rally I just HAD to divert to take a look at it,

 

1 hour ago, Bossspecops said:

Having some 'built-in' flexibility on subsequent Legs would have been handy. 

Keeping in mind that the primary goal should to have fun and share your adventure the with the simming world, when we "time" an event, the "time" becomes the goal, not "fun and sharing." I feel that there is so much adventure that awaits along the planned AU route, that at least for me, worrying about time will be my least concern.

[defaid]

25 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

when we "time" an event, the "time" becomes the goal, not "fun and sharing."

 

On a per challenge basis perhaps?

 

Plan v. time seemed to work for the Route 66. Fastest was great fun in the Bendix Trophy. I've just started on AirBasil_1's Toronto flight and my goal is no more thanto fly a commercial route and a reasonably accurate arrival & approach with Radar Contact while having a good look at the Ultimate Terrain.

 

The Australian AOPA... I don't know yet... maybe just the chance to visit some obscure fields I've never seen. If it's happening well after new year, I will make the missing fields for FS9 even though they are all 'overfly' waypoints and I'll probably drop in. If I fly something unfamiliar (most of the hangar...) I'll need the practice so that I don't make a fool of myself in front of you all at the final landing.

[jgf]

3 minutes ago, defaid said:

so that I don't make a fool of myself in front of you all at the final landing.

 

Now don't go eyeing last place, that's mine.

[defaid]

I at least know what I'll be doing for the Carrera Panamericana: "it was widely held by contemporaries to be the most dangerous race of any type in the world."

 

Right down on the ground as fast as I can.

[taoftedal]

4 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

Keeping in mind that the primary goal should be to have fun and share your adventure the with the simming world, when we "time" an event, the "time" becomes the goal, not "fun and sharing." I feel that there is so much adventure that awaits along the planned AU route, that at least for me, worrying about time will be my least concern.

 

3 hours ago, defaid said:

... just started on AirBasil_1's Toronto flight and my goal is no more than to fly a commercial route and a reasonably accurate arrival & approach ... while having a good look at the Ultimate Terrain.

 

The song 'Luckenbach, Texas' comes to mind ... (I know ... I'm just another hopeless romantic).

[PhrogPhlyer]

19 minutes ago, jgf said:

Now don't go eyeing last place, that's mine.

Here's a man who's always comfortable with himself.

[taoftedal]

18 hours ago, Bossspecops said:

The only one I could find is a pretty old Mike Stone model ...

 

Looks good to me ... 

[Rupert]

4 hours ago, taoftedal said:

 

 

The song 'Luckenbach, Texas' comes to mind ... (I know ... I'm just another hopeless romantic).  

Been there, sung that, smoked grass, with Jerry Jeff and Willie!

 

Rally is a pretty generic term.  It does include TSD (Time Speed Distance) events, measured mileage events, fuel economy events, gatherings of like minded people or equipment, groups with the same interests traveling together, and open events where people congregate, etc.  I'd be in favor of a list of places for entrants to visit and post their views, yet allow the entrants to fly there in their own manner and time.  As well as change aircraft or even sims if they so choose.

 

If it is to be a timed event I still think it should exclude people choosing to set their autopilot and go watch the tube, sleep, or exceed the fuel load of the aircraft they are flying.  But I'd much prefer allowing their time and energy to be spent exploring places of interest enroute.  There are lots of different scenery packages available on tons of different formats   As long as everyone completes the event within a set time frame of days or weeks.

 

The Around The World In Eighty Days event from a few years back never actually ended because a ton of people dropped out or disappeared and the "judge" hadn't set an end date!!

[TomPenDragon]

On the question of timing/scoring, I think the Race/Rally/Joint Flight is whatever each flyer cares to make it.  In my case, it started as a writing exercise and has morphed into enjoying spending time with the people here - like I told my wife when I started bouncing off the walls in the middle of my Bendix run, "I'm just overwhelmed when people these days aren't a**holes to each other."  From a writing standpoint, a poor showing during a scored run can make for as good a story as a first-place finish.  And I see a great deal of talent in many of the other writers here - your stories keep getting better with each leg of each flight!  I'm eager to see how far we can take this.  So for me, it's the Happy Bottom Writing Club, which I'd love to see continue even if the Challenges don't.  Bring your planes; bring your pens!

 

That said, the element of scoring does add a lot to the experience, even if it's only to decide who buys the first virtual round at the virtual VFW Hall.  The formula we used for Route 66 provides the most flexibility among different aircraft and flying styles; however, using cumulative variance presented an issue in that case: Anyone who was flying after 10 November and had a variance greater than 7 had no way to win.  For anyone to whom winning was important, the scoring system could easily become a disincentive.  Using mathematical variance (adding when a flight goes over plan; subtracting when a flight goes under plan) avoids this - theoretically, anyone can win until the last plane finishes.

 

Why don't we try using mathematical variance for the AUAOPA, see how it goes, and adjust for the next one?

[TomPenDragon]

4 hours ago, defaid said:

I at least know what I'll be doing for the Carrera Panamericana: "it was widely held by contemporaries to be the most dangerous race of any type in the world."

 

Right down on the ground as fast as I can.

Once the AUAOPA is done, I'll work up a route prospectus (perhaps even with culinary suggestions for each stop), complete with scenery suggestions.  However, when I proposed it God-knows-how-long-ago, I mentioned two trophies - a traditional, cup-style one for flying mountaintop high, and for a treetop-high run, two enormous brass spheres on a plinth.

 

I've driven that road, not anywhere close to racing speeds, and I can certainly see how people would say that it's the most dangerous race in the world.

[ViperPilot2]

5 hours ago, defaid said:

 

On a per challenge basis perhaps?

 

Plan v. time seemed to work for the Route 66. Fastest was great fun in the Bendix Trophy. I've just started on AirBasil_1's Toronto flight and my goal is no more than to fly a commercial route and a reasonably accurate arrival & approach with Radar Contact while having a good look at the Ultimate Terrain.

 

 

Mind if I ask you a favor? When you fly to Toronto, could you give us a basic blow by blow of your Flight, like doing the Flight Plan, how you Climb to Cruise Altitude, or how far out you are when you start your Descent towards the Airport?

 

It could really help "Tuber" rookies like me who are still trying to learn about these things... for mine I just took off, got on Course and flew direct to Toronto. I know it's not realistic but it'll do for now until I become more proficient!

[TomPenDragon]

On the flight back to New York yesterday, Rey decided to try to finish his CE-500 Rating before the end of the year.  Jessica offered to mentor him, and they agreed to take a Citation SII back up to CYTZ this morning.

 

 

Jessica wanted Rey to choose a different route than he flew yesterday, so he plotted a flight along New York State's Southern Tier Expressway.

 

 

It was another gorgeous December day in New York.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We're up right after that DC-3.

 

 

Climbing out...

 

 

 

 

 

The Southern Tier...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Into Canada now, bringing her down...

 

 

 

Turning onto a long, backcourse final to 26...

 

 

 

Touching down...

 

 

 

Some lucky person in a Mustang's on their way to the active...

 

 

I had just opened the cabin door when Rey said, "If I had known that I was going to be spending the Holidays in New York, I would have brought a few more things with me from Mexico."

 

"No prob," Jessica smiled.  "Let's fill 'er up and go get them."

 

 

I rolled my eyes.  How did that old country song go?  "My wife ran off with my best friend, and I miss my Citation?"  I flopped down in a seat in the cabin while the two in the cockpit worked up a flight plan.