Flying IFR without autopilot?

[Grotius]

Hi all. I'm not a pilot in RL, though I've enjoyed being a passenger in GA aircraft as well as jetliners. I have a newb question.

 

Can one fly IFR without ever using autopilot? Must some of it (e.g., the localizer portion) be done with autopilot on? I imagine flying by hand is more feasible in a slow aircraft like a C172 than a jet. Even in a slow aircraft, I find I have my hands full switching NAV and COM frequencies, managing ATC, staying on course, etc. MSFS makes some of this easier by tuning ATC frequencies automatically for us. (Can I disable this feature?) But still, I find things happen very fast in departure and arrival procedures.

 

I ask because I like hand-flying the plane, and because I hear the autopilot in MSFS20 is a bit buggy. (I wouldn't know -- I haven't tried it yet in 10 hours of flying, heh.) Thanks in advance.

[PEIRascal]

Some here might Scoff at me, but yes you can fly IFR without the autopilot.

 

It is not easy, especially in MSFS, but can be done. You can offload some of the work to the Co-pilot as would happen in real aircraft.

 

I too like to hand fly a lot. In FSX my main aircraft is the CRJ700. I almost always fly the departure to cruise altitude, then fly the descent from TOD to the gate. I just like doing it.

 

Can't do this yet in MSFS, firstly because there is no CRJ700, and secondly because I am in the re-learning stage.

 

Fly it the want you want to, and have fun with it.

 

Hal

[Grotius]

Thanks, Hal! Just the kind of reply I was looking for.

 

After I posted, I found a video of a guy doing exactly this in a C152. This guy is a real pilot, and (not surprisingly) he's a much better sim pilot than me. He got angry with himself for being 50 feet above his self-assigned altitude.

 

[rockinrobin]

I would venture to guess that IRL the vast majority of C172's and similar GA aircraft flying today have no autopilot, and many fly IFR much the time. The autopilot is meant to be an aid, not a requirement. In a jet, the autopilot is relied on more, since the aircraft can deviate from assigned altitude and heading much more quickly.

[Kapitan]

Of course you can, and you should

Its part of a pilot skill, knowing how to fly without outside view just following his instruments to avoid spatial disorientation.

 

And remember, one thing is today's situation, only real just recently but the world has always moved in GA without autopilot.

 

I took my PP license in 1978 and for decades autopilot was something only present in airliners. And of those GA that had autopilot it was mostly used in cruise flight,

all approaches were done with the pilot concentrated and holding ine hand in the yoke and the other the throttle

 

If ILS available you manually align it with the LOC and when the glide is at 0 degrees and starting to go down you hit APP but disconect as soon as you make contact with the runway

Edited September 13, 2020 by Kapitan

[lnuss]

Can one fly IFR without ever using autopilot?

As others have indicated above, you certainly can. In point of fact, to get an instrument rating (in RL), the pilot MUST show that he can fly without an AP. If you read Fate Is The Hunter by Ernest K. Gann (an excellent book, and should be on your bookshelf) you'll see just how much instrument flying was done in the early days without an AP.

 

But, as you've noticed, it's not the easiest thing in the world, and the FAA requires a minimum of 40 hours of flight training, along with a great deal of ground school/ground instruction, to obtain that rating, in addition to all the other requirements. And that difficulty is also why the FAA requires a certain minimum experience within the last 6 months in order to keep that rating current (otherwise you need refresher training). Except for the ATP (which includes a lot of instrument work) the instrument rating is usually considered the toughest rating to get.

 

Even in a slow aircraft, I find I have my hands full switching NAV and COM frequencies, managing ATC, staying on course, etc.

 

And that's exactly why so much training is involved in getting the rating -- just the flying on the gauges part isn't too difficult once you've learned it an kept in practice, but handling all the other chores while still keeping the plane upright is a major part of the training, along with learning the rules, ATC's expectations with loss of communications and other situations, learning to do the different types of approaches, and many other things that the sim doesn't require (but usually allows you to do if you wish).

 

Handling recovery from unusual attitudes is another piece of it, since if you lose control you'd also like to regain control -- no pause button up there.

 

You can offload some of the work to the Co-pilot as would happen in real aircraft.

 

Only if you actually HAVE a co-pilot. I rarely had an autopilot OR a co-pilot through most of my flying career, and that was true of most pilots in the smaller light aircraft. Bonanzas and such, plus the light twins and up usually had/have autopilots, and they're a great asset when used properly, but they can also cause their own set of headaches.

[bam1220]

Of course you can, and you should

Its part of a pilot skill, knowing how to fly without outside view just following his instruments to avoid spatial disorientation.

 

And remember, one thing is today's situation, only real just recently but the world has always moved in GA without autopilot.

 

I took my PP license in 1978 and for decades autopilot was something only present in airliners. And of those GA that had autopilot it was mostly used in cruise flight,

all approaches were done with the pilot concentrated and holding ine hand in the yoke and the other the throttle

 

If ILS available you manually align it with the LOC and when the glide is at 0 degrees and starting to go down you hit APP but disconect as soon as you make contact with the runway

 

I got my PP in 1979 and was also taught to have one hand on the yoke and the other on the throttle. I mentioned this once in the FS9 forums and I was laughed at by a few people. So glad you mentioned it.

[lnuss]

I got my PP in 1979 and was also taught to have one hand on the yoke and the other on the throttle. I mentioned this once in the FS9 forums and I was laughed at by a few people. So glad you mentioned it.

 

You were taught correctly. That is especially critical during takeoff and landing, so that you don't waste time grabbing for controls when even one or two seconds (even half a second) count in starting the emergency procedures. People can get by in the sim with most anything, since they don't risk damage, injury or death, for you and for others, but IRL it's very important.

 

As for being laughed at by a few in the forums, you need to learn to ignore such things from the ignorant, since I'm certain they wouldn't have been real world pilots laughing -- they were all taught the same thing, at least in the pattern. Elsewhere there can sometimes be more leeway for relaxing.

[Grotius]

Thanks for the educational responses. I've been practicing. As I mentioned in my second post in this thread, I watched a Youtuber do an IFR flight from KFOK to KGON (Long Island to Groton), and he did it without autopilot (but also without ATC). So I replicated his flight -- IFR, many low clouds, no auto-pilot -- except I kept the ATC on.

 

I managed the first couple legs surprisingly well, but ATC did not give me the ILS approach I was expecting, and I couldn't find the waypoint they assigned for me on Skyvector, so I had to ask them for vectors several times. I eventually found the waypoint and landed safely. It was very satisfying.

 

But I need a lot more practice. I tried again, this time from Cincinnati to a nearby municipal airport, and all went well -- until I reached down to fuss with the mixture, took too long, and put the plane in a spiral that caused too much stress on the aircraft. (I had that realism setting on, which is all well and good, except that it cost me a Flight Sim Economy fare!) End of flight.

 

Also, I can trim the aircraft to hold its altitude pretty well now. But horizontal trim is another matter. No matter what I do, the aircraft wants to roll slightly right or left. I try adding aileron trim, but that just delays an inevitable roll one way or the other. Maybe I should add more of a deadzone to my Saitek yoke?

[Grotius]

So I had more practice today, flying into Kenai Muni (PAEN) in Alaska. I tuned its localizer, 108.9, but in my glass cockpit, it showed up only as a VOR. I never saw the glide slope indicator, even though I approached at the proper altitude. I landed fine, but I was disappointed I didn't get to follow the glide slope down. Anyone know why it didn't show? Maybe "localizer" doesn't necessarily imply glide slope too?

[rockinrobin]

So I had more practice today, flying into Kenai Muni (PAEN) in Alaska. I tuned its localizer, 108.9, but in my glass cockpit, it showed up only as a VOR. I never saw the glide slope indicator, even though I approached at the proper altitude. I landed fine, but I was disappointed I didn't get to follow the glide slope down. Anyone know why it didn't show? Maybe "localizer" doesn't necessarily imply glide slope too?

 

If it is a "localizer" approach, it will only provide lateral guidance and no glideslope. A localizer plus a glideslope is an ILS approach.