Pls advice on upgrading for P3Dv4

[atr_42_500]

Dear all,

 

I would need your kind help since I know so little bout PCs.

 

My current specs are

Asus ROG G30AK-RO020D: Intel® Core™ i7-4790K 4.00GHz, Haswell™, 16GB, 1TB + 128GB SSD, nVidia GeForce GTX 960 2GB

 

It works fine for P3dV3 but I want to go for V4 and get good FPS at medium-to-high graphic settings.

 

I need to use Aerosoft A320 Proffesional wilth addon sceneries / PMGD 737 + GSX, Active Sky, probably ORBX base + TrackIR.

 

I was considering something in the line of Aerosoft's recommendation: an ASUS GeForce® GTX 1070 STRIX OC, 8GB GDDR5, 256-bit (although I suppose I am a bit limited by the fact that its a pre-built regadring the size of a new graphics cards). Maybe a new SSD exclusively for P3D.

 

Do I need more than upgrading the graphics card? What else you recommend to change?

 

Thanks,

Mircea

[CRJ_simpilot]

I'm not that all too familiar with P3D and its capabilities unlike FSX or FS2004. I have read here that P3D does in fact utilize a graphics card more so than FSX or FS2004. So perhaps a GPU upgrade would suffice. By in large, your PC, while a bit dated would still work well for P3D I imagine. If you were to go with the latest Intel Coffee Lake 9th generation CPU, I'm betting you won't see much of a performance boost. And all in all a complete waste of money. Though, if you do have the cash to blow, go for it.

 

What is the make and model of your power supply (PSU) now? You may need to upgrade that in order to accommodate the power requirements of a new graphics card (GPU). Also know that if your PSU is 7 years old or older it should be replaced. And if it's a no name brand PSU that makes matters even worse. If the PSU goes out it could take the whole system with it. Good brands of PSUs are Antec, Corsair, Coolermaster and Thermaltake.

 

Your SSD could use some upgrading. Consider something like a 256 GB Crucial or Samsung. Many people including myself also use a platter hard drive as spill over. I have a couple 2 TB hard drives for that purpose. This is where you'd direct your browser's downloads folder, your music folder, videos, pictures and other installs not needing the speed of a SSD hard drive.

 

I'm not sure about Samsung, but with Crucial they have in their software a momentum cache feature which will use your RAM for faster access. However, you should only use that feature if your computer has a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) or is a laptop with a battery. Reason is because if your power goes out you'll lose data in RAM and you'll more than likely have some file corruption. With a UPS as a battery backup that threat is mitigated. I own a CyberPower CP850PFCLCD which is meant for active power supplies. It gives me about 20 minutes of standby time should the power go out. More than enough time to safely save my work, close a game, etc and power off the computer normally. I get about 15 minutes of standby time while flying in FSX.

 

Rereading your post, you say you have a per-built machine? Then you more than likely need to upgrade the PSU as a new GPU more than likely won't work with the PSU you have now since the computer manufacturer only uses a PSU that provides enough power for what's in the machine at time of purchase. What is the make and model of your computer? Do you have a web link to it by chance? The other possible limiting factor could be the space in the computer for a new GPU like you pointed out. I'd have to check the dimensions of a GTX 1070 and your case specifications.

Edited January 19, 2019 by CRJ_simpilot

[atr_42_500]

Thanks a lot for the kind reply.

I have tried to find the exact PC on English sites but I couldn’t. Based on what info I get from you, guys I will talk to someone who can make the upgrade. I couldn’t add an additional Hard drive by myself:(

 

Here is the link

 

https://www.emag.ro/sistem-desktop-pc-asus-rog-cu-procesor-intelr-coretm-i7-4790k-4-00ghz-haswelltm-16gb-1tb-128gb-ssd-blu-ray-combo-nvidia-geforce-gtx-960-2gb-free-dos-black-mouse-tastatura-g30ak-ro020d/pd/DWQ91MBBM/

 

And a translation:

 

 

Length 543.7 mm

Depth 216 mm

Height 480.8 mm

Weight 14.36 Kg

color Black

PROCESSOR

 

Intel[emoji2400] processor manufacturer

Processor type i7

Model Processor 4790K

Number of cores 4

Number of threads 8

Devil's Canyon architecture

Nominal frequency 4000 MHz

Turbo Boost Frequency 4400 MHz

Cache 8 MB

Processor technology 22 nm

Integrated Graphics Processor Intel[emoji2400] HD Graphics 4600

MOTHERBOARD

 

Socket processor 1150

Intel Z97 chipset

Onboard 1 x PCI Express x16 slots

1 x PCI Express x1

1 x PCI Express x8

1 x VGA Back Panel Ports

1 x HDMI

1 x RJ-45

1 x DVI-D

6 x Audio

1 x PS / 2

6 x USB 3.0

1 x SPDIF

4 x USB 2.0

Total number of memory slots 4

10/100/1000 network

MEMORY RAM

 

DDR3 memory type

16 GB memory capacity

Memory frequency 1600 MHz

32 GB maximum memory

Slots occupied 2

CAPACITY STORAGE

 

HDD + SSD storage type

1 TB HDD / SSHD capacity

HDD / SSHD SATA interface

HDD rotation speed 7200 rpm

128 GB SSD capacity

VIDEO CARD

 

Dedicated video card type

NVIDIA GeForce video chipset

GTX 960 video card model

2 GB video memory capacity

Memory Type GDDR5 Video Card

NVIDIA SLI video cards technologies

nVIDIA CUDA

nVidia 3D Vision Ready

nVidia PhysX

nVidia Adaptive Vertical Sync

nVidia GPU Boost

4K Resolution Support

Number of video cards 1

CARCASA & SURSA

 

Full Tower Case type

500 W power source

Blu-ray Optical Drive

 

 

Thanks!!

 

 

 

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[Luke]

It works fine for P3dV3 but I want to go for V4 and get good FPS at medium-to-high graphic settings.

 

If it works fine for P3Dv3 then my suggestion would be to do nothing and try it with v4. From there you can determine whether your GPU is maxed out (possibly, depending on resolution) or whether your CPU is hitting its limits.

 

If you do need a GPU upgrade the 2060 seems like an interesting proposition.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[atr_42_500]

Thanks, Luke,

I already have installed v4 and got the Aerosoft Airbus. At an add on airport with some weather and medium graphics graphics + 30% AI traffic settings I get up to 14 FPS away from scenery, somewhere between 7 and 12 at the airport . It’s not enough. So I think I need an upgrade. Just need to figure out if I need to invest in a new video card or a better processor. I would not want to spend more than 600-650 EUR.

 

 

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[lesh]

Just need to figure out if I need to invest in a new video card or a better processor. I would not want to spend more than 600-650 EUR.

 

As a first step, I'd consider overclocking your CPU. There are numerous articles around the Internet about how to overclock a 4790k and you should be able to get it up to about 4.6GHz without too much trouble. However, you'll almost certainly need a new CPU cooler. For air coolers, look at the Noctua NH-D15S or, better still, get a good all-in-one liquid cooler like the Corsair H100 - check you have enough space before buying. Neither are particularly inexpensive but look at it as an investment for any future system upgrade.

 

Even if you don't overclock, I'd definitely look at a GPU upgrade as you'll probably be limited by the 2GB of VRAM on your current card. Look at the new RTX 2060 which you should be able to find for a similar price to the GTX 1070 but with better performance.

[atr_42_500]

Thanks a lt. Actually the system has a built-in OC, doesn’t make a difference when turned on. So it seems I have to go with the new card.

Cheers

Mircea

 

 

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[lesh]

Thanks a lt. Actually the system has a built-in OC, doesn’t make a difference when turned on.

 

A lot of the earlier automated overclocking features on motherboards were sketchy at best. As I said in an earlier post, there are many online tutorials for manually overclocking your CPU rather than trusting the built in feature of your MB.

[atr_42_500]

Thanks.I’ll check that first, then.

 

 

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[Luke]

If you suspect your video card is at its limits, run nvidia inspector - it should tell you what % of the GPU is in use... if it's constantly over 90%, yes, you're GPU-bound.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[atr_42_500]

Thanks. I’ll do that

 

 

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[CRJ_simpilot]

Let me just comment on this over clocking crap as I'm really reluctant to do since I know I won't change anyone's opinion.

 

When you are running the Sim and a lot of other things it's not so much the clock that maters, but the architecture of the CPU. If you think that's a rather erroneous statement then consider the following: Take an old Pentium 4, 3 GHz CPU and compare its power capability to that of an i5 6600k running at 3.5 GHz. Now despite the i5 having only a meager 500 MHz faster clock, the i5 will in fact eat the Pentium 4 alive in computational processing ability strictly because of its architecture.

 

Believe me. I have overclocked my i5 6600K and tested the before and after frames result flying around New York since that area tends to suck the living life out of frames. With the over clock I only noticed about a 2 frame jump if that.

 

So I conclude that it's really not worth your time or effort to over clock. Not only are you adding more heat to the CPU, but wear and tear. Over clocking in large part is just a bragging right.

 

If yo truly need more computational CPU horse power, then consider a 9th generation Coffee Lake CPU.

 

As I already stated, your PC is pretty much fine for P3D and Aerosoft planes. I believe at this point your only limiting factor may in fact be the GPU. If P3D does utilize the GPU like games such as Red Dead Redemption, then a GTX 1070 will help greatly.

 

Again, upgrading your GPU requires a new PSU. Reread what I said. If you plan on going this route I'll need to check if case space won't be an issue. OEM computers are designed for their specific hardware and nothing more.

[Luke]

When you are running the Sim and a lot of other things it's not so much the clock that maters, but the architecture of the CPU.

 

90% correct. You can definitely compare clockspeeds within the same architecture, and generally between architectures there's a general rule of thumb that you can use to provide reasonably good approximations.

 

Believe me. I have overclocked my i5 6600K and tested the before and after frames result flying around New York since that area tends to suck the living life out of frames. With the over clock I only noticed about a 2 frame jump if that. So I conclude that it's really not worth your time or effort to over clock.

 

Other people should be very careful making blanket assumptions out of this single data point. How much did you overclock by? Were you actually CPU or GPU limited at the time? Was a 2fps jump from 30 to 32, or was it from 10 to 12 (which would be significant)?

 

From my standpoint, overclocking is free performance. I have an I-9700K that stock is at 3.6Ghz, and I overclocked it to 5.0Ghz - I'll take 40% free cycles. It's not guaranteed (my previous CPU was an I-4770K that didn't go over 4.0Ghz) but it's free performance that can be unlocked with a motherboard setting or two. I'll take it.

 

Not only are you adding more heat to the CPU, but wear and tear. Over clocking in large part is just a bragging right.

 

One of my old sim CPUs (2008-2010 era) was an Q9550, so a Yorkfield quadcore that spent its entire life overclocked from 2.83Ghz to 3.2Ghz, with questionable cooling (once or twice the heat sink came off for a few days without anyone noticing since I wasn't running the sim). Once it got replaced by a Sandy Bridge, it was given to my daughter who ran it for six or seven years in a nasty dusty case, then I repurposed it for a server I have. The heatsink contact remains questionable and it's noisy, so I've since underclocked it to 1.8Ghz since I'm too lazy to reseat the sink.

 

It's fine. It runs great after 10+ years of questionable treatment. Overclocking reduces CPU life - sure - from 30 or 40 years to 20 or 30. Like my Q9550, they will be obsolete long before they wear out.

 

I don't necessarily want to change your mind - just provide a different viewpoint.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[atr_42_500]

Thanks for the precious imputs guys, I really appreciate the time your took to give your detailed feedback. Actually I send all info to a friend that will help me reconfigure the PC. I would't know the difference beween components unless I check the price :))

 

 

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[CRJ_simpilot]

90% correct. You can definitely compare clockspeeds within the same architecture, and generally between architectures there's a general rule of thumb that you can use to provide reasonably good approximations.

 

So I can overclock a Pentium 4 to 5 GHz and compare that to an overclocked i5 6600k? Nope.

 

What was your frame increase?

[loki]

So I can overclock a Pentium 4 to 5 GHz and compare that to an overclocked i5 6600k? Nope.

 

Re-read what he said. If you know the rule of thumb, you can compare the two architectures. In other words if the the i5 6xxx architecture is 1.8x faster than the Pentium 4 at the same clock speed, for example, then you can use that combined with the clock speed to compare the two. He didn't say a Pentium 4 at the same clock speed would be the same as an i5 6600K.

[lesh]

Take an old Pentium 4, 3 GHz CPU and compare its power capability to that of an i5 6600k running at 3.5 GHz. Now despite the i5 having only a meager 500 MHz faster clock, the i5 will in fact eat the Pentium 4 alive in computational processing ability strictly because of its architecture.

 

The difference between generations is not nearly as much as you'd think. Take a look at: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/intel_core_i9_9900k_processor_review,7.html. Look at the IPC / Single thread chart at the bottom of the page. They run each of the CPUs at the same clock speed to accurately compare single core performance. There's only about 15% difference between the single core IPC of a 9900k and a 4790k, clock for clock. Remember that FSX and P3DS are both still predominantly single thread applications. The main advantage the newer processor have is that they run at a higher clock speeds out of the box. My own experience is that overclocking gives a fairly linear increase in performance - a 15% overclock should give roughly about 15% more FPS.

Edited January 23, 2019 by lesh

[CRJ_simpilot]

The difference between generations is not nearly as much as you'd think.

 

I'm sorry, but it really is. You simply can't compare a Pentium 4 to a Skylake like I pointed out.

 

Now look at this chart: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

 

And yes, I know that FSX and P3D are single threaded. I've stated that in like ten or more posts trying to help people pick a good CPU.

Edited January 23, 2019 by CRJ_simpilot

[lesh]

I'm sorry, but it really is. You simply can't compare a Pentium 4 to a Skylake like I pointed out.

 

Now look at this chart: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

 

But the OP doesn't have a Pentium 4, he has a 4790k and you can reasonably compare that to the most recent CPUs. The chart you linked has no information about what speeds the processors are running and yet there's still only 15% between the 4790k and the 9900k. Running them at the same clock speed (as Guru3d does) is a much more accurate indicator of relative performance. Overclock the 4790k and any sim performance difference quickly reduces. I know that it's nice to think that the latest, greatest CPUs/chipsets are all powerful but that's really only the case if you're running true multi-core capable software.

[CRJ_simpilot]

I have seen comparisons of CPUs with the single thread capability at Andantech and there is a difference in single thread capability withen different architectures.

[lesh]

I have seen comparisons of CPUs with the single thread capability at Andantech and there is a difference in single thread capability withen different architectures.

 

I didn't say that there wasn't. Just that for single threaded applications it's not that large and can be mitigated by overclocking. Even your link showed that. Do you have a link to the Anandtech comparison?

[CRJ_simpilot]

If you go to anandtech.com and select Bench, there you can compare two CPUs side by side. Look at the single thread capability between the two.

[atr_42_500]

I have been following but no time to check on my PC , lot of work... maybe this weekend

 

 

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[CRJ_simpilot]

Here's a comparison. Granted there is an 800 MHz increase in turbo, but I doubt 800 MHz would make that much of a difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luke]

Here's a comparison. Granted there is an 800 MHz increase in turbo, but I doubt 800 MHz would make that much of a difference.

 

Assuming the benchmark scales linearly with clock speed, going from 4.2 to 5.0 is around a 19% increase. 119% of 8760 is 10424.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke