Digital Rights Management again

[loki]

On that we agree; in all my years I doubt I've known a half dozen people I would classify as completely honest across the board. I think most people are honest within their "sphere of influence" - family, friends, neighborhood, community - the the farther from that you go, the more "wiggle-room" you have. Not saying if you go to another town you would steal a car or rob a bank, but you would probably take advantage of a situation with a stranger that you wouldn't do with a neighbor.

 

But for "copy protection"/"DRM" (I wonder what the next terminology will be), again consider the analogy of a retail store. They install security cameras and monitors and place sensor pylons at the exits; this is not intrusive for customers and possibly cuts losses by 75%. Now they would like to knock another 20% from that so they install airport type security at the exits - put all packages on the conveyor, empty your pockets ...anything triggers an alarm you get a wand scan, trigger that and go to a separate room for a strip search. This may cut that 20% from losses, but with two factors to consider: the law of diminishing returns - spend $500k/year to prevent a $40k/year loss?; and how many customers would say, "I liked shopping at this store but that's too much! I'm taking my business elsewhere".

 

The computer game industry is at that point. Everyone has their own tolerance; some people think the Steam/Origin/Ubi model is fine, others are already saying, "this is too much". The current systems have already been hacked, so what is next? How intrusive, how draconian, will the next system be before another group of gamers say, "enough!" And that system will be hacked also. It's a cold war between the hackers and the developers, with the valid "honest" gamers being the victims. Eventually enough gamers will have rebelled to affect the bottom line of Steam, et. al., but until that happens we are stuck in this vicious cycle. (If, during its first couple of years, enough people had stood up to Steam and said, "this is unacceptable", we would not be having this discussion today.)

 

Steam is as popular as it is in large part because most gamers find it a good balance between DRM and convenience. While some developers, or more likely the publishers, do add more draconian DRM on top of what Steam offers, most appear to be getting the message to back off. You need to remember the other DRM systems that broke access to CD drives, or installed root kits without telling the user. Steam has managed to convince most developers/publishers to back off the enforcement side in exchange for the ability to get their games in front of millions of users with little cost.

 

Your proposed method of downloading an ISO and validating against a server is essentially what Steam offers. You can easily back up the Steam game files to avoid downloading it all again, and any games do basically only need a one time check against a validation server. Both still have the issue of what happens if the validation server isn't running though.

 

I do agree that EA and Ubisoft's systems are more intrusive, but I don't see the problem with Steam. It doesn't need to run all the time, and even when it does, I haven't had any issues with it. GOG is doing reasonably well with little or no DRM, however, I'm not sure far they will be able to grow. So in the mean time, while not perfect, Steam seems to have found a decent balance between enforcement and user friendliness that gamers have accepted.

[jgf]

Steam is as popular as it is in large part because

 

they have created a generation of gamers who think Steam is the only way to buy, install, and update a game.

 

 

You make some interesting points.

 

But I still question - if I can actually disable their software, why make me install it at all?

 

Admittedly much of my ire is directed towards those developers and publishers who are creating a monopoly by releasing their titles solely on Steam. When I bought FS9 or Morrowind or any of dozens of other games, I had a choice. Don't like Electronics Boutique? go to Software Etc. or Target or CompUSA or any of dozens of online vendors. Want to buy Skyrim? Register and become a member of the Steam Community. By my standards that is vile and reprehensible.

 

While I have minor issues with GOG, it's not with their marketing. Click the paypal button, download a game. No extraneous and unwanted software, no becoming a member of anything. Steam should have this option.

 

And I retract some complaints about Steam I voiced in some (much) older threads. I found the incomplete versions of some games they sell were not their doing, the developers supplied them that way.

[evm]

The next step? The next step is, that games or any other software are no longer able to run locally at all. You can only use them while being online. Steam, Adobe Creative Cloud and Microsoft Office 365 are only the beginning.

 

I have been visiting a few compaines lately where there wasn't any local server hardware anymore. The complete office package was provided online by Microsoft. And there are more startups on the way who are offering those services, including even bookkeeping.

[jgf]

The next step? The next step is, that games or any other software are no longer able to run locally at all. You can only use them while being online. Steam, Adobe Creative Cloud and Microsoft Office 365 are only the beginning.

 

I have been visiting a few compaines lately where there wasn't any local server hardware anymore. The complete office package was provided online by Microsoft. And there are more startups on the way who are offering those services, including even bookkeeping.

 

At which point I will stick with whatever games I have because I find that concept an abomination. I already use older versions of some software because newer versions are Cloud based. Micro$oft has already announced a future version of windows will be Cloud based. So all PCs, laptops, and "mobile devices" (I love that term, an automobile is a "mobile device") will be merely dumb terminals; you will never buy software again, instead of a one time payment and you own a disc, you will lease the use of that software, month after month, year after year ...forget a payment and the Cloud cuts you off. (Why do people buy houses instead of renting?)

 

And all major current Cloud operators have already side-stepped privacy by burying in their TOS the statement that by uploading files to their cloud you agree to let them "scan" or "inspect" those files. That's tantamount to the Post Office saying that by putting a stamp on an envelope you give them permission to open and read your mail.

 

I'm reminded of a favorite song from my college days,

 

"It starts with a blessing

But it ends with a curse;

Making life easy, but...

Making it worse."

[ColR1948]

I agree with jgf, it has got worse and worse, I've had problems with software as mentioned above, you need this or that installed to run it etc and/or it doesn't work with your version of Windows etc.

 

I've had other software games and been on their forums only to read users having problems installing and/or running it because of things mentioned above, and again as already mentioned they say things like, "I won't buy any more software from that company again."

[mbish01]

I agree too. To h*** with the cloud, Steam, Win 10 etc. Call me a dinosaur maybe, but FS9 (with patch), MSTS and win 7 are as far as I ever need to go--more than enough add-ons to keep me happy for life!

 

Mike

[jgf]

...more than enough add-ons to keep me happy for life!

 

Mike

 

Lol, I also enjoy race sims; a while back I did a quick calculation for one of them - counting all the installed mods and extra tracks, a race weekend (half hour practice, half hour qualifying, two hour race) with each car at each track would entail fifteen years of 24hr/day racing. I have eight other race sims, not to mention all the other installed games ...or all the "to be installed" games (including MSTS, lol). Now if only real life would stop infringing on my computer time.

[jgf]

...then DRM and product will be reduced and prices will go up to cover the losses...

 

Which might be offset by decreased development cost and time when not continuing that vicious circle of increasingly complex and draconian DRM schemes.

 

I was quite serious in that note to Bethesda, I am willing to pay more for a game on disc (or .iso download) than for one saddled with these loathsome modern DRM schemes.

[davidjones]

That's up to you, of course. Current prices are set to regain development costs in the first 25% of sales due to piracy. If long term piracy increases as a result of diminished DRM, so will prices. There it is.

 

DJ

[Wing_Z]

The cherry on top for this whole misadventure:

SimMarket graciously credited the failed install.

I used it to buy an old Heinkel He219 Owl from WOP.

Installed it in a dummy folder to have a look, then uninstalled for later use.

The uninstaller made too many disk noises; when I looked, it was munching random aircraft and sceneries all over the show.

I punched the reset button on the computer and later deleted all the WOP stuff, especially the brand new splash screen I didn't ask for...

 

I'd really like to own my computer and everything on it, or at least be asked whether something can muck about with it, first.

 

If someone needs to put conditions on any purchase I make, can it not be done by telegram or smoke signal, perhaps??

[ColR1948]

@jgf, You say you have MSTS, I presume that is Train Sim. I have that too and loved it, I downloaded and bought lots of extra addons for it including trains and track for other countries, most of those I had no problem with installing, the only problem I had was some had glitches in the writing of the program like trains derailing on certain bends etc, but they were ironed out by guys on the forum doing mods.

Most of the other problems were the free downloads that users had modelled or bad tracks or poor scenery.

But as you may well know MS decided to drop it and anything for it now if from user addons, I still have all my disks for it though, I may go back to it one day lol.

[Skywatcher12]

I mess with racing games, recently MSTS in the form of Open Rails, OR is much better imo and quite a few other games. I'm in the same situation regarding DRM, not interested same with FSX or P3D. FS2004 runs brilliantly on Win 7 with any addon I care to use.

Long term looks like it's Win 7, FS2004 and all the games released in the past which as far as I'm concerned were much better than modern attempts of the same type of game. Difference with the modern attempts are they are done nowhere near as well, low on features unless you spend mega $$$ on DLC's, high on bugs and the modern games come wrapped up in a DRM package. Forget it! lol

[jgf]

....Current prices are set to regain development costs in the first 25% of sales due to piracy. If long term piracy increases as a result of diminished DRM, so will prices. ...

 

And exactly how are those losses computed? A real world store keeps inventory - we ordered x number, we sold y number, we have z in stock; if the numbers don't add up, there's the loss.

 

If someone hacks a game and puts it on a torrent site, how would anyone know how many downloads there were? How could any developer/distributor say they lost a certain number of sales due to piracy? We are no longer dealing with physical objects which can be counted.

[jgf]

... I presume that is Train Sim. ...

 

Yes; picked it up on ebay a couple of years ago but have yet to install it ...along with numerous other games from yard sales, flea markets, abandonware sites, GOG, and ebay.