FSX Realism

Hello,

I read some recent posts here written about the ILS Approach and assumed the "Real" ILS brings the aircraft down to the "Numbers" --regardless of aircraft type. Seems I am landing long with FSX--further than I want to in an ILS jet approach. Is this procedure? --maybe safety hazard clearance in low ceiling approaches?? Also, there was a comment to have flaps set before capturing the ILS Glide slope. In training, we were taught to never deploy "Full" Flaps until the runway was "Made"--meaning maybe a couple hundred feet out (40 degrees in a C-172). And before this point, use of flap settings were always incremental, and I rarely started their use until just 1000 feet AGL (Mid-downwind approach if I recall correctly). While the C-172 had 4 settings, the 4th "notch" was quite a drag on the aircraft and would cripple a go-around if you found yourself forced to make one. Questionable in cases of over field pull-outs--low speed; no wind, heavy and weather hot... I cannot imagine passenger jet aircraft have much different handling. Tell me I am wrong!! Does Reverse Thrust depend on a "RPM" engine setting? Sometimes RT reacts instantly and other times it drags on me. My impression is the RT levers initiate their own engine power level?? I am clueless.

Redd

Lessons in the Learning Center will answer all these questions, and more.

Only thing you need to know is that in default FSX there is NO autoland. Disable ILS APPR at MSA and hand-fly the approach from there.

Configuration changes in the heavy iron is simply not done that late in the approach. You need to be ON Speed, ON GS, ON Landing Config, at least a thousand feet before TD. Most modern airliners are not really flared, they are flown onto the runway using a slight nose lift and retard on the throttles at 50ft and reverse thrust added after WoW. The only automatic thing in FSX is the spoiler deployment on TD.

the "Real" ILS brings the aircraft down to the "Numbers" --regardless of aircraft type.

All aircraft (if flown accurately) will follow the same path on a given ILS. But speed (and other) differences will cause aircraft to follow different paths from the flare on. Too much speed down final will cause you to "float," while not enough speed will cause a hard touchdown. But an ILS isn't aimed at the numbers, but rather at the spot abeam the glide slope transmitter, which is generally a ways down the runway, generally marked by a series of stripes.

Seems I am landing long with FSX--further than I want to in an ILS jet approach. Is this procedure?

Among other things, a jet is a very clean aircraft, even with all the flaps etc. out, compared to a C-172, and things happen a LOT faster, so you want all the garbage hanging out during the approach and an approach speed that doesn't cause you to float very much (in FS, a few trial runs at different speeds will find the right speed for a specific aircraft -- not necessarily the "book" approach speed, since FS models differ, often a lot, from real aircraft performance in this flight regime. Weight differences matter a lot, too.

I cannot imagine passenger jet aircraft have much different handling. Tell me I am wrong!!

You're wrong and you're right, depending on the flight regime. At cruise speed at moderate altitudes (not near the service ceiling) many (not all) jets handle in similar fashion to light aircraft, except for more inertia and more speed, thus making things happen faster, as well as causing slight delays in control response. At very high altitudes they get very touchy, and on approach they're different, partly because of the extra speed and inertia, but partly because of the different response characteristics of a jet engine, and partly because of inherent handling differences (they exist among light aircraft, too -- a Cub doesn't handle like a C-172, and neither handles like a Grumman-American Tiger, for example). The 757/767 sim I flew was, in the couple of hours I had, not too much different from a big Cub (with less rudder needed), but we didn't get into slow flight (except for the beginning of an approach, before the sim locked up, just as FS used to do, except that the physical controls locked, also), high mach flight or the coffin corner.

we were taught to never deploy "Full" Flaps until the runway was "Made"--meaning maybe a couple hundred feet out (40 degrees in a C-172).

The C-172 (and 182, and 150) flaps were 40º until the late '70s (or was it early '80s), when they reduced that to a 30º max deflection, largely because of that extra drag and (I presume) legal concerns (I've missed that in later models).

Hello,

 

Also, there was a comment to have flaps set before capturing the ILS Glide slope.

 

Redd

I think most say to do that to make it easier for beginners to learn the approach

and landings. But it's not how it's done in real life with most planes including the

larger jets. IE: normal procedure with the 737 is flaps 5 until glide slope, where at

that point gear is dropped, and flaps 15. Once down to flaps 15 maneuver speed,

you then select landing flaps, which is usually 30 or 40, usually 30 for most runways,

unless there is a need for flaps 40, like steep approach, short runway, etc..

The vast majority of 737 landings are with flaps 30.

A real 737 would never be down to landing flaps and vref+5/wind before the glide slope.

Many of lnuss's tips are good for smaller planes. As I recall, he's a real world CFI..

He once did some Beech Baron flight model testing for me back in the late 90's when

I was overhauling the FSFS Baron. Pretty sure that's him anyway..

Hello,

 

I read some recent posts here written about the ILS Approach and assumed the "Real" ILS brings the aircraft down to the "Numbers" --regardless of aircraft type. Seems I am landing long with FSX--further than I want to in an ILS jet approach. Is this procedure? --maybe safety hazard clearance in low ceiling approaches?? Also, there was a comment to have flaps set before capturing the ILS Glide slope. In training, we were taught to never deploy "Full" Flaps until the runway was "Made"--meaning maybe a couple hundred feet out (40 degrees in a C-172). And before this point, use of flap settings were always incremental, and I rarely started their use until just 1000 feet AGL (Mid-downwind approach if I recall correctly). While the C-172 had 4 settings, the 4th "notch" was quite a drag on the aircraft and would cripple a go-around if you found yourself forced to make one. Questionable in cases of over field pull-outs--low speed; no wind, heavy and weather hot... I cannot imagine passenger jet aircraft have much different handling. Tell me I am wrong!! Does Reverse Thrust depend on a "RPM" engine setting? Sometimes RT reacts instantly and other times it drags on me. My impression is the RT levers initiate their own engine power level?? I am clueless.

 

Redd

See my post at the end of the following thread for a step-by-step guide on how to land an Airbus A319 or A320. That is a 100% accurate method of how airline pilots fly a standard 3 degree ILS in the Airbus 320.

https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?292251-Questions-About-ILS-VOR-Approaches&p=1936658#post1936658

As for the use of flap full crippling a jet during a go-around, the first step of the go-around technique, assuming a standard go-around (I.e. not windshear and not TOGA10) is to get the flaps up one stage, or order to improve the go-around performance. But remember that these jets have enough thrust to go around in these flap settings on just one engine, and there are at least 2 engines so... you'll be fine with Flap Full. The reasons they don't use it too early in the airlines are for fuel saving and noise reduction. In many airports, for instance, you'll be required to maintain 160kts until 4nm from the threshold, which would be done with flap 2 and gear up. The configuration will then begin at 5 miles with gear down and the rest of the flaps coming out in sequence. Certainly it is extremely unusual, in the A320 at least, to be config full before capturing the glide slope. The only time we would do that is if it were an extremely steep approach, like in Marsaille or Montpellier.

As for where you should be touching down on an autoland, real airliners will touch down within the landing zone. As a clue, the sweet spot for landing a jet aircraft is to have the aircraft cross the numbers while the rad alt shows 50ft. The landing zone is the first 1000m or first 1/3 of the runway, whichever is less. If you're touching down within this, you or the autoland is doing a perfectly good job. If anybody lands outside of this, it's a bad, unsafe landing.

'Realism' is one thing. Learning to 'Read' the instruments is another.

The Flight Director will tell you if you are under the GS (will indicate 'climb to intercept' with the bug being above the GS (center)). So you give it throttle to keep speed due to AP vertical 'climb'.

If your are above the GS (FD will indicate 'descend to intercept' with the bug being below the GS. So you reduce power (speed) (or add flaps?) without doing anything else, and allowing AP to 'dive' to intercept, and then stabilize.

You NEVER 'trouble shoot' when on final - GO AROUND.

And another thing they don't tell you is: in FltSim, don't leave the Auto Throttle on. Make THAT the first thing you shut off, then your Aproach, then your AP in that order.

Another thing they don't tell you is: IF you shut off AP (all of it) 1 or 2 miles out, then you may need to MANUALLY enter +pitch trim to hold your altitude and attitude (ie: keep the nose slightly up) for a hand fly landing.

Chuck B

And another thing they don't tell you is: in FltSim, don't leave the Auto Throttle on. Make THAT the first thing you shut off, then your Aproach, then your AP in that order.

Actually you can leave the A/T on in many planes.. IE: the 737's.. But I suspect

that the A/T performance of the default 737 is likely not up to par to cleanly pull it off.

But I haven't checked to see how well it does..

It does OK with the PMDG NGX, although still not exactly the same as the real plane,

according to the real world pilots comments. If the NGX has an issue, it's that it's a

wee tad late on the retard.. Or I think anyway.. Should retard at 27 ft AGL, and I've

had A/T landings with the NGX where it was almost on the ground before the retard.

Which can tend to make you float a bit more than I'd prefer. So with the NGX, if A/T

is on for landing, it's best to plant the plane and not try to grease it.

Like I say, I like to run the throttle myself to avoid that issue, and I can always add

to the Vref if it's windy.

With the 737, many real world pilots run the A/T down to the ground as it lets them use

a Vref+5 approach speed no matter what the winds are. I assume it must be quite

responsive to allow that..

Myself, I actually prefer to run the throttles myself, and usually kill the A/T at the same

time I kill the A/P. But it's perfectly viable to run the A/T down to the ground when

otherwise flying manually. In the 737 at least.. I suspect the same for most of the other

Boeings. And naturally it will be used for autolands..

Thanks for the thought out replies... On A/T. I found it is easier to kill A/T early in the approach, long before capturing the GS--simply because I need to slow down and better control speed. Usually will go to 2 notches of flaps when the nose dips--upon capturing the GS. I recall having problems on touchdown leaving AT engaged. Somewhere I learned you should turn the AP off when about 100' AGL and runway in sight of course--and this I do. From the replies, I believe the ILS is doing the job because the touchdown is in--as said above--1/3 of runway distance. Oh yes, flew an early 70s C-172 and so 4 notches of flaps was something I used then--I was not aware of later model changes dropping out the 4th. Overall, I like to set down on the "Numbers"--a good feeling--with plenty of runway left. In the real world on takeoff, I never wasted an inch of runway and always pulled the AC into position as close to the starting edge of the runway--the way I was taught. You never know when the distance could make a difference. There is a lot to learn on FSX--not sure I could ever spend enough time on it and overcome all the minor issues. I grabbed onto a downloaded Aircraft--an A-320 which for me is great to fly--it has callout (Fun Jet 212 LTE). Only issue is the airport jetways do not work for this jet.

REDD

Thanks for the thought out replies... On A/T. I found it is easier to kill A/T early in the approach, long before capturing the GS--simply because I need to slow down and better control speed. Usually will go to 2 notches of flaps when the nose dips--upon capturing the GS. I recall having problems on touchdown leaving AT engaged. Somewhere I learned you should turn the AP off when about 100' AGL and runway in sight of course--and this I do. From the replies, I believe the ILS is doing the job because the touchdown is in--as said above--1/3 of runway distance. Oh yes, flew an early 70s C-172 and so 4 notches of flaps was something I used then--I was not aware of later model changes dropping out the 4th. Overall, I like to set down on the "Numbers"--a good feeling--with plenty of runway left. In the real world on takeoff, I never wasted an inch of runway and always pulled the AC into position as close to the starting edge of the runway--the way I was taught. You never know when the distance could make a difference. There is a lot to learn on FSX--not sure I could ever spend enough time on it and overcome all the minor issues. I grabbed onto a downloaded Aircraft--an A-320 which for me is great to fly--it has callout (Fun Jet 212 LTE). Only issue is the airport jetways do not work for this jet.

 

REDD

If you need any tips flying the 320 let me know. I've been getting paid to fly them for 5 years now. Keep the autothrust in until the flare, when you disconnect it by pulling the thrust levers to idle.

Thanks Hal----

I tried AT down to the numbers and beyond---but idling did not sever AT--so I hit the AT icon to cease its operation on my 320. The 320 may be my favorite AC right now for its game performance--at least on my PC. You never know what FSX is going to do to you. Sometimes, I notice turbulence on ILS approach--even when ATIS stated winds are calm!! This being NOT over water and/or dense wooded areas----or lower approach?

Redd

https://www.youtube.com/user/rfresh1011

This is my YouTube 737NGX Training Channel. One of my videos is titled How To Fly The Perfect ILS Approach. I use the Boeing procedures/standards. This video will tell you exactly when to put out what amount of flaps, when to drop the gear, etc. There is a lot of mis-information out there and this video will show you the correct procedure to fly an ILS.

If you're coming in too fast, or over shoot the runway while turning base leg, etc. this will fix all of those problems and any others. It will also show you what speeds you need to be at during every phase of your approach.

It's all free -- enjoy!!