PC Controllers for Helicopter Sim (FSX)

[Rebrecs]

Good Morning !

Admittedly, I have not done a thorough pre-post search, but I did enough to find out this is a sparse topic

 

I recently put a couple of toes in the water attempting to fly the choppers included with FSX. Wow ! Lots of challenges ahead if I keep going.

So far, it is fun.

Topic is game controllers that work well for flying Helicopters. I fly fixed wing with a HOTAS Thrustmaster.

At this point, I'm not experienced enough to know what questions to ask. My observation and gut feel is the sensitivity is too high on the Thrustmaster. I understand there might be settings for that, which I will explore. But, if there are better controllers, I would like to know that too.

Any and all comments here would be greatly appreciated.

 

TIA,

 

 

 

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

2 hours ago, Rebrecs said:

HOTAS Thrustmaster

This will work just fine, as long as you remember to make all inputs slow and smooth.

There is a lot of discussion about throttle control vs a collective configuration.

I have used a throttle for years and do not find it a distraction.

Keep in mind the the V-22 has a controller that looks and functions quite like a HOTAS throttle.

The technical discussion of throttle vs collective, rpm goveners etc, leave those to later.

People forget that the sim allows helo flight in quite a different manner than the actual aircraft.

Biggest and best advice I can give, practice, practice and practice.

You will get frustrated, so consider that a right of passage.

[jgf]

I found lowering my controller sensitivities about 30% made helicopters much easier to learn;  also starting with larger helicopters was easier since their response is slower (downside to this is if you get out of line it is harder to correct).  And it takes utmost concentration, you'll learn to fiddle with the radios, GPS, etc. with one hand while actively flying with the other ...I'm only good for about thirty minutes before I need a break.  Years of practice I've gone from utterly incompetent to merely pathetic.

 

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, jgf said:

Years of practice I've gone from utterly incompetent to merely pathetic.

A few more years and you graduate to sloppy and sad!

 

In FSX I like the Bell 47 for it's visibility, and the Bell 206. Both have similar and realistic handling qualities.

When I first learned to fly actual helicopters, it was in a TH-57 (Bell 206). The first flight was mostly flying between a couple fields to highlight the similarities while in forward flight.

Them we progressed tp hover and air taxi.

 

[Nels_Anderson]

One thing I don't see anyone else mentioning is that aircraft joysticks typically have a spring of some sort to center the stick, which is something you don't really want with a helicopter. When I first tried copters a few months ago I found I could only fly a few minutes at a time because I was fighting the spring so hard. I found a video on how to remove it, and while I decided to just reduce it instead of removing it completely, the end result was a definite improvement.

[PhrogPhlyer]

22 minutes ago, Nels_Anderson said:

I was fighting the spring

This is interesting, as I prefer the push back that the spring provides, ensuring that I don't over control with the joystick,

I wonder if this is just a case of  preference based on one's own flight simming experience, or possibly a muscle memory situation from real helicopter flying.

Either way, it is a good recommendation.

[Nels_Anderson]

Well, I think there are a few things going on. If you are in a fixed wing plane and just take your hands off the controls it will pretty much fly straight and level all by itself. The spring in the joystick helps make this happen. This isn't so useful in a helicopter, as the centered position is more or less going to put you in a hover, rather than in forward flight. So for a fixed wing plane the spring's centered position is in the right place for en-route flight, but this is not the case for helicopter flight.

 

It will depend on the helicopter and on the joystick too. The Logitech stick I have has quite a stiff spring, even for airplane flight. There are a number of videos and how-to's on removing or reducing the spring, so the complaint on this specific stick seems to be a common one.

 

So far I only have experience with two sim helicopters (in MSFS 2020), the default Guimbal Cabri C5 and the Cowansim Bell JetRanger and there's a big difference here too, as the Cabri takes a lot more forward motion of the stick for forward flight than does the JetRanger.

[Rebrecs]

20 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

 

You will get frustrated, so consider that a right of passage.

I love that - "and don't come around here whining ... get your butt back in there and learn it !"

 

 

[Rebrecs]

1 hour ago, Nels_Anderson said:

Well, I think there are a few things going on. If you are in a fixed wing plane and just take your hands off the controls it will pretty much fly straight and level all by itself. The spring in the joystick helps make this happen. This isn't so useful in a helicopter, as the centered position is more or less going to put you in a hover, rather than in forward flight. So for a fixed wing plane the spring's centered position is in the right place for en-route flight, but this is not the case for helicopter flight.

 

It will depend on the helicopter and on the joystick too. The Logitech stick I have has quite a stiff spring, even for airplane flight. There are a number of videos and how-to's on removing or reducing the spring, so the complaint on this specific stick seems to be a common one.

 

So far I only have experience with two sim helicopters (in MSFS 2020), the default Guimbal Cabri C5 and the Cowansim Bell JetRanger and there's a big difference here too, as the Cabri takes a lot more forward motion of the stick for forward flight than does the JetRanger.

interesting - so with stick in center detent it should just go straight up. 

[PhrogPhlyer]

3 hours ago, Nels_Anderson said:

the centered position is more or less going to put you in a hover, rather than in forward flight.

This is true for actual helicopters also. You must apply and hold forward cyclic (stick) to fly forward.

Maybe part of the difference in expectations is a pure FW pilot vs a duel FW/RW pilot.

 

1 hour ago, Rebrecs said:

interesting - so with stick in center detent it should just go straight up. 

Generally, yes.

[jgf]

I believe rudder pedals would make sim helicopters immensely easier to fly;  my joystick has a twist grip for rudder and it is quite tiring to not only maintain constant forward pressure but to also maintain a slight twist at the same time.

[ViperPilot2]

I cheated and installed Rob Barendregt's Helicopter Gauge into the choppers I have, and it makes it easier to start out. At about 40kts the gauge shuts off and goes back to 'regular' flight, so it gives you time to prepare. It's just a matter of finding that sweet spot on your joystick that allows the right combination of forward, level and twist. I can fly straight and level for about two minutes before things start to go awry. Keep at it. 

[PhrogPhlyer]

7 hours ago, ViperPilot2 said:

I cheated and installed Rob Barendregt's Helicopter Gauge into the choppers I have, and it makes it easier to start out.

If this aid helps you get the "feel" of hover and translational flight, then it definitely isn't cheating.

After a while, you will be able to turn the gauge off and won't need the crutch anymore.

Keep practicing.

[ViperPilot2]

On 7/29/2023 at 6:12 AM, PhrogPhlyer said:

If this aid helps you get the "feel" of hover and translational flight, then it definitely isn't cheating.

After a while, you will be able to turn the gauge off and won't need the crutch anymore.

Keep practicing.

Never!!! 

[ViperPilot2]

Well, after doing some real FlightSim soul searching, I've come to the conclusion that flying meringue beaters is dependent on the day of the Week... some days you've got the feel, some days you don't. In my previous post I was describing issues with simple stability in flight. For the past couple of weeks, every time I load a choppah into the SIM and fly, everything's pretty good! I can hold my direction of travel without large yaw oscillations, and I can hold Altitude to +/- 400 feet in most situations. Still a skosh off in the y axis, but not by much. Practice makes perfect (somewhat)... 

 

Oh... No changes in Sensitivity/Null Zone to the joystick.

[ViperPilot2]

BUMP

 

So, after almost seven Months a little Update... using both Nels' and jgf's Recommendations about reducing the Centering Spring tension on the Joystick and adjusting the Sensitivity and Null Zones in the Sim, I can fly for an Hour straight now and it's much more comfortable with way better control than before.

 

I downloaded the Trim Gauge, but cannot figure out how it works and there's no Documentation to explain its function.

 

I've discovered that for some reason I do better using my Left hand for the Cyclic; I am Left handed for some things (writing, eating) and it's easier to reach both Keyboard and Mouse. The 'fine' control and small Stick movements PP mentioned feel better using my Left hand vs. the Right, although IRL it's contrary.

 

Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome, I guess. If it works, it works! 

[Nels_Anderson]

OK, let me offer my own update... Yesterday I passed 300 flight hours in MSFS 2020, with most of it being in helicopters.

 

I tried a couple of things in recent months to improved controllability.

 

First, while still using the Thrustmaster stick I mapped two of the buttons to be rotor trim, which gave me easy access to the ability to lessen the need to push the stick so far forward to maintain forward flight. This made en-route flying better.

 

But still being dissatisfied with the over-sensitivity, I decided to upgrade to a better joystick and got a VKB Gladiator NXT. This came with three sets of springs, but I found even the weak one to be too much so decided to try it with no spring at all. This made initial take-off more of a challenge, but en-route flying is better as there is now no spring to fight against. The stick allows you to set the friction for both forward/backward and side-to-side so that force now replaces the force of the spring. This actually works quite well.

 

What I still have, though, is too much sensitivity, preventing the fine control that I'd like, especially in forward/back motion. Side to side seems to be less of a problem for some reason. I've tried changing the sensitivity in the sim setup menus, but after doing so I really don't notice any difference.

[PhrogPhlyer]

23 hours ago, ViperPilot2 said:

I downloaded the Trim Gauge, but cannot figure out how it works and there's no Documentation to explain its function.

Pitch (up/down) - Normal elevator trim

Bank - Cntl Left/Right arrow

Yaw - Cntl 0/Enter (on the number pad/10 key)

 

Each helicopter has its own hover and in-flight trim (very RL).

Pull into a hover slowly and trim until stable (no drift).

 

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, Nels_Anderson said:

Side to side seems to be less of a problem for some reason.

I believe this may be due to the flight dynamics attempting to go into translational lift for forward flight.

This is just an observation of how the helicopter hovers/ translates in FSX, and may not apply to MSFS.

 

An actual collective would most likely make the difference with finer input control (large movement = small movement at the base of the control arm).

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, Nels_Anderson said:

Yesterday I passed 300 flight hours in MSFS 2020, with most of it being in helicopters.

Nice!!!

Glad you took the leap and expanded your repertoire to include rotary wing.

[ViperPilot2]

3 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

Pitch (up/down) - Normal elevator trim

Bank - Cntl Left/Right arrow

Yaw - Cntl 0/Enter (on the number pad/10 key)

 

Each helicopter has its own hover and in-flight trim (very RL).

Pull into a hover slowly and trim until stable (no drift).

 

 

 

The Trim Gauge I downloaded looks completely different; it's got buttons and an x/y Grid. I push buttons and get no response or difference in the way the Helicopter reacts.

 

For me it's all about the Spring tension and the Sensitivities/Null Zones. I decreased Spring Tension slightly and everything went whacko; I lost all of the Feel I built up and there was that awful 'ratcheting' feeling all Saitek joysticks have with minute movements. So, 3 new Zip ties later and all is back to "normal". Still, Southpaw is the way to go for me.

 

Oh, and my Apologies if I didn't mention this before... but I'm using FS9 ('Nine'). 

 

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

34 minutes ago, ViperPilot2 said:

The Trim Gauge I downloaded looks completely different

 

34 minutes ago, ViperPilot2 said:

I'm using FS9

The one I showed is for FSX. It might be worth the try to see if it woks in FS9.

 

[ViperPilot2]

Howdy!

 

Just an Update... I think I've found a good mix of Sensitivities and Null Zone Adjustments that allow me to fly pretty much straight and level, with minor Rudder inputs to stay on course...

 

Sensitivities (L to R on the 'scale'):

 

Allerons Axis - just before half 

Elevator Axis: - just before half

Rudder Axis: - halfway

 

Null Zones (L to R on the 'scale'):

 

Allerons Axis: 3/4 position 

Elevator Axis: - just before 3/4

Rudder Axis: - just past 3/4

 

Up to just past an Hour Flight Time before the hand(s) get sore. I'll get there by the time our Australia Rally starts on Monday 1/15!