Good youtube tutorial, how to fly helicopter?

[Nels_Anderson]

OK thanks, this is great feedback and very helpful to have people who've successfully gone through this to ask.

 

So OK, my joystick is "good enough". I should mention that I modified it...I didn't remove the spring but I removed part of it so the tension is much lower than it originally was. For airplanes it was OK as it was but it's now much better for helicopters and actually I'm perfectly happy with the lower force for airplanes too.

 

I know there are better choices out there though. I read one of your reviews on Helisimmer and the stick sounded fabulous, but the price was many hundreds of dollars so more than I really want to spend. Maybe I missed it, but do you have recommendations for suitable joysticks somewhere? A really nice article would be a joystick round-up, broken down by price range, showing sticks that are suitable for helicopters.

 

Glad you could confirm about "the hump". I thought that might be the case but having it confirmed encourages me to to continue. I remember a similar thing when learning to fly real planes...seemed like for the longest time every lesson was touch and goes until I finally got the feel for landings down right.

 

Thanks for the reference videos, I will definitely watch them.

 

About settings...in MSFS 2020 I do not have a special joystick mapping for helicopters, so my controls are mapped to ailerons, rudder, etc. and it seems to control helicopters just fine. But there are helicopter specific mappings in the choices too...so an interesting investigation by someone who knows what they are doing would be to see if these mappings somehow work better than just leaving in the default fixed wing aircraft mapping.

 

 

[Spac3Rat]

In general, those assignments work but there may be some catches. For example, from what I heard directly from Sebastian Wloch, the Throttle/Collective/Pitch axis are "reversed" so to speak. So the airplane throttle actually controls the collective (you can assign to one or the other) and the helicopter throttle controls the prop pitch if I am not mistaken.

 

Keeping your axis assigned properly may be helpful if for any reason a developer specifically does something to that particular axis or if Asobo does any changes. I don't foresee it may happen but you never know.

 

I've been planning on doing a video about controls for some time. I just need 72-hour days to do everything I want to. HeliSimmer.com is not what puts food on the table for me so I am quite limited.

 

But yes, my recommendations are a bit expensive. If you managed to reduce the force of the spring, that should help a lot. If I had limited budget my next investment would be some pedals, not the stick. And I would also try to reduce the force of the spring or remove it if possible.

[Buck Turgidson]

On 4/4/2023 at 2:22 AM, Nels_Anderson said:

 

 

So OK, my joystick is "good enough". I should mention that I modified it...I didn't remove the spring but I removed part of it so the tension is much lower than it originally was. For airplanes it was OK as it was but it's now much better for helicopters and actually I'm perfectly happy with the lower force for airplanes too.

 

 

 

This is just my opinion so double your money back guarantee!  You can't "fly" helo in MFS2020 without proper rudder pedals.  Almost any stick will work for cyclic (with or without spring mod) and collective but you really need pedals.  Hovering is one thing but coming in to hover before landing requires large input to collective and rudder simultaneously.  Pick you spot you want to land (into the wind to start) from about 500 feet and drive in at about 60 knots using collective and cyclic to keep your approach angle.  Use rudder to maintain heading.  This will mean dropping a lot of collective (with subsequent rudder correction) at first, then slowly applying collective (which requires opposite rudder) as you near the landing spot.  You should stop about 10 feet above ground and just short of where you want to land and then drop slowly to 3feet while slowly going forward and touchdown.

 

Two things Phrog said that need repeating is the visual ques and smooth input.  Without getting 2020 uber alles, there is a lot better visual ques in the newer one IF you keep a soft focus.  Kinda like not fixating on instruments, you keep a soft focus and let your peripheral vision help out.  Also, look out at things further away when starting out, but softly.  For flight dynamics there is no comparison, 2020 is more accurate and simulates various wind interaction with terrain in a different league.  One of the pics below I tested three different helo in about 15 knot wind and the downdrafts coming into the hilltop landing were spectacular.  You could even feel the bumpiness and swirls as  you feel for the ground with the skid.

 

Flight dynamics of aircraft vary dramatically.  The H135 is the easy to fly and feels like a 4million dollar hydraulically assisted aircraft with a lot of power and smooth controls.  The gumball is goldilocks for learning and accurately represents controls.  I just got the 500E and while it looks beautiful, it is horrible for control input.  I am sure it will be fixed in time just like the 135 started out a bit rough.  The Bell in FS doesn't feel right either, something about how it banks feels off.

 

To get a handle on how the collective, rudder and cyclic interact, start off on the ground with assists off (seriously you won't get better with assists and you will induce training scars).  Keep wind less than 5 to start or headed into the wind.  Pull collective slowly and smoothly (listen to Phrog) until the aircraft starts to scoot right or left and apply opposite rudder.  Do not lift off!  At this point you should learn control inputs and scoot the aircraft around without going forward and back.  When you can lift off til one point of one skid is touching, then try to raise collective the last bit smoothly and hover.

 

Dont do any tail into the wind maneuvers til you can hover under control in the other three directions because crossing the tail into the wind is more tricky.  Add some wind and try again.  When you can hover in control, transition out, run a circuit at 500 and come in for a landing.

 

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

14 minutes ago, Buck Turgidson said:

let your peripheral vision help out.  Also, look out at things further away when starting out, but softly. 

Very important sim and real.

 

15 minutes ago, Buck Turgidson said:

Flight dynamics of aircraft vary dramatically. 

This is also true in other versions (I use FSX). I would try a few helos for simple hover/TO and Landing, and see what you like, Then stick with this one until VERY comfortable with helo flying. After years f helo simming in FSX I fly only the Bell 47, JetRanger, Huey, or the CH-46. (the Bells all have similar handling characteristics). This allows for a range of types while being able to increase skills. 

 

25 minutes ago, Buck Turgidson said:

Dont do any tail into the wind maneuvers til you can hover under control in the other three directions because crossing the tail into the wind is more tricky.

In real helo flying, not only does the aircraft want to weathervane into the wind, but you also you must watch turbine temps with the wind coming from the tail.. Nice ting about a helo, can always pivot at the LZ into the wind,

 

[Nels_Anderson]

Thanks for the additional advice. I will keep practicing!

[PhrogPhlyer]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:50 PM, Buck Turgidson said:

coming in to hover before landing requires large input to collective and rudder simultaneously. 

I read this several times before deciding to comment. First, this is definitely NOT what happens in real helicopters. Helo flying has often been referred to as needing finesse not force on the controls. Secondly, in FSX and FS2004 "large input" in never required. That is what I would tell a student is overcontrolling. Smooth application always works with a helo. Maybe this is a MSFS 2020 dynamics issue? 

[Nels_Anderson]

12 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

I read this several times before deciding to comment. First, this is definitely NOT what happens in real helicopters. Helo flying has often been referred to as needing finesse not force on the controls. Secondly, in FSX and FS2004 "large input" in never required. That is what I would tell a student is overcontrolling. Smooth application always works with a helo. Maybe this is a MSFS 2020 dynamics issue? 

 

As I've been learning to land in MSFS 2020 this is what seems to work for me: on approach the collective/power is set very low, with small adjustments made as needed. As you come to a stop the collective/power rather quickly have to be raised to what is necessary to maintain a hover. I'm still working on the "smooth" part of this as the change happens pretty fast. I would think this could be termed a "large input"; is this not normal or correct technique?

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, Nels_Anderson said:

this is what seems to work for me: on approach the collective/power is set very low, with small adjustments made as needed. As you come to a stop the collective/power rather quickly have to be raised to what is necessary to maintain a hover. I'm still working on the "smooth" part of this as the change happens pretty fast.

You've pretty much nailed it. Smooth/small control application, and enough power as needed to maintain the hover. Well done. Soon you'll be ready to pass your check ride! 

 

An aside, I've been trying to determine to what extent HIGE/HOGE (hover-in and hover-out of ground effect) exist in FSX. And if these change with pressure altitude. These are determined daily to allow the pilot to know IF they can even hover or not. If not, still can fly using a running T/O and landing. As I discover more of real v sim helo dynamics I will share.

[PhrogPhlyer]

1 hour ago, Nels_Anderson said:

I would think this could be termed a "large input"; is this not normal or correct technique?

Yes, based on aircraft a large amount of power (collective) may be needed. The point I was attempting to make is that large application of anti-torque pedal is almost never needed. Think if this a similar to rudder petal input for P-factor in a fixed wing. Smooth application is the key.

[Nels_Anderson]

21 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

Yes, based on aircraft a large amount of power (collective) may be needed. The point I was attempting to make is that large application of anti-torque pedal is almost never needed. Think if this a similar to rudder petal input for P-factor in a fixed wing. Smooth application is the key.

 

Trying to think my way through that...  The pedals/tail rotor are there to counter the main rotor torque. When you power up to transition from approach to hover I would think you are then adding a lot of torque that would need to be countered, but you're saying that's almost never needed. What else is coming into play to counter the increased torque?

[PhrogPhlyer]

27 minutes ago, Nels_Anderson said:

adding a lot of torque that would need to be countered, but you're saying that's almost never needed.

Yes you need anti-torque pedal input, slowly applied as you increase power (collective). But it is rarely, if ever, needed to be added as a fast full pedal large input. Smooth input (increase/decrease) of pedal with smooth application (increase/decrease) of power. I think its a small semantics matter over "large" control inputs. The main point is no matter what you do with a helicopter, do it smoothly, with finesse and style.

[Nels_Anderson]

OK, that makes sense.

[Rupert]

To date as an old H-34 and H-46 jockey I've never seen any sim duplicate what we who RW fly know happens in a chopper.  Yes I have the rudder pedals, Joy stick etc.  But regardless of the sim, I still haven't seen any sim that comes close to replicating RW chopper driving!

[PhrogPhlyer]

30 minutes ago, Rupert said:

I still haven't seen any sim that comes close to replicating RW chopper driving!

But still a fun way to spend a few hours now and then!

 

A couple "fun" reads are by Ray Prouty who wrote these for Wing & Rotor: "Helicopter Aerodynamics" and "More Helicopter Aerodynamics."

He explains the most complex of actions that even us mere mortals can understand.

[Nels_Anderson]

13 hours ago, Rupert said:

To date as an old H-34 and H-46 jockey I've never seen any sim duplicate what we who RW fly know happens in a chopper.  Yes I have the rudder pedals, Joy stick etc.  But regardless of the sim, I still haven't seen any sim that comes close to replicating RW chopper driving!

 

I'd be curious for more details on this...what are we sim pilots missing?

[PhrogPhlyer]

Nels. I think we've all been hinting at this in one way or another.

Fixed wing aircraft are basically the same, with variations due to power/weight/role rate/etc. Look out front window, center yourself on the runway, apply power, get above stall speed, rotate and climb. Descend, slow down, stay above stall speed, and touch down on center line. Slow to stop. (I know, very over simplification).

Rotary wing aircraft, slowly apply power, get light on skids, adjust; lift into hover, adjust;  move to air taxi, adjust; begin forward fight, adjust; climb, adjust; turns, adjust; level flight, adjust; descend, adjust; slow to land, adjust; blink eyes, adjust; breath, adjust; sneeze, adjust; adjust then, adjust, adjust;, adjust;, adjust;, adjust; and when in doubt, adjust. 

And with the sim, add the fact that to replicate a real helo you need to look all around, adjusting to minor movements in your peripheral vision, feeling slight movements in three axis at once. It would be like having a unicycle simulator... how to replicate balance and visuals.

Even saying all that, sims do a VERY good job of offering helo flight to everyone. So we really should talk about the good things sims offer, and not focus on what it can never fully replicate. Now if you get a chance to fly in a full motion simulator, that's a a whole different thing.

From the questions you've asked, and the explanations you've given, Nels, you are well on your way to being a solid sim helo pilot.

 

[Nels_Anderson]

Real world fixed wing planes have much more variation than that of course, but your analogy is still valid. Many fixed wing planes are designed to be inherently stable and fly hands-off, where no helicopter will ever be like that.

 

The looking around is a challenge. I really don't want to have to wear a VR helmet. I do have two monitors but you really need at least three to have a sort of surround situation and that takes a lot of desk space. I've tried a head tracker but it has issues too, as I often find the movement too jerky and it also makes it hard to click on things on the screen as you have to hold perfectly still while doing that.

 

So I guess you and Rupert disagree on how well the sim replication helicopter flying. Well, it's as good as I'm going to get so I'll just enjoy it for what it is

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

24 minutes ago, Nels_Anderson said:

I'll just enjoy it for what it is

And in the end, ENJOYMENT is what this is all about!

26 minutes ago, Nels_Anderson said:

you and Rupert disagree on how well the sim replication helicopter flying

We agree in that it will not truly relocate to a degree that will give "the sights and feel" of a helicopter. And  also I believe we both would agree that even as is, everyone should give these challenging aircraft a try, and again, have fun!

[Rupert]

On 4/1/2023 at 3:54 PM, PhrogPhlyer said:

Nels, A very important aspect of helo flying is something that none of the sims can replicate appropriately, and that is the visual cues one gets when actually hovering or air taxiing a helo. Looking out at 30-45 deg, one is able see these very small movements, and with PC based sim this is nearly impossible. And  the sims do not replicate well translating from hover to forward flight, and the reverse. Landing on a runway, has a certain angle/view that is relatively the same no matter what type aircraft you fly, with consistent visual cues.

The slight side view to which you refer is exactly why I prefer FSX or P3D, especially for flying a chopper.  Using either of the older platforms I can add two or more additional screens to get that much needed side view, especially when in a hover.  And I typically also use a fourth screen to scan the gauges without having to change or reduce my outside view.  With the MSFS, additional screens don't appear to be an option.  And even "VR" still provides only one view.  You just move your head to get one view.

 

That huge vision loss, in addition to learning different control inputs from the old standards is why I haven't spent almost any time with MSFS and consider my purchase of it a waste of my money.   Phrog, you might be surprised how much more you can "sense" with multiple screens when flying with FSX etc.

 

Having spoken about vision, in my case at least, personal inner ear movement inputs while RW flying a chopper make my body automatically react, similar to the automatic body functions when riding a bicycle, a skate board, or years ago surfing.  To me the lack of movement input is what I fight so hard to replace with my eye input while hovering in a sim.

 

Bottom line?  We're all looking for fun!  And as my VA shrink taught me, it is a lot more fun when you can fly without getting shot at!

 

Michael

[Rupert]

One other point.  IMO rudder pedals are certainly a huge improvement to RW flying, regardless of the air frame.  I've tired joystick controlled rudder twists and to me it just isn't correct.  I use a joy stick when flying an aircraft which came with one, but I still use rudder pedals rather than trying to control the rudder by twisting the stick.   

[PhrogPhlyer]

3 hours ago, Rupert said:

it is a lot more fun when you can fly without getting shot at!

Amen brother!

[Rupert]

5 hours ago, Nels_Anderson said:

I do have two monitors but you really need at least three to have a sort of surround situation and that takes a lot of desk space.

 

Two or three monitors?  Are you looking at just one view spread out over multiple monitors or can the monitors be set to show totally separate views continuously without toggling views?  As I understood it, and per my various attempts, when I started using MSFS, only one view, pick any one, at a time was available regardless of video card output capability or number of monitors involved.  You could spread that one view over multiple monitors but without toggling views but it was still just the one view at a time.  My understanding was that was so the sim could be compatible with X-Box. 

 

I haven't used MSFS in forever so I haven't spent the hours upon hours online getting the "updates" I thought should have been already included in a product at that price point so I have no idea if they've actually made multiple views available without toggling every thing.

 

I always use three or four different monitors each showing totally different views (For example I can look at Left Window, Virtual Cockpit, Right Window, Switches only, or Compass Only views)  by just looking at a different monitor just by shifting my eyes without any view toggling with the older sims. To me that's like RW. 

 

Typically when I want to look straight ahead that's virtual cockpit on the center monitor.  To look left I use the left monitor aimed out the left side of the cockpit.  Looking right is the right monitor looking out to the right, when looking down I see the lower monitor focused on the switch panels or I can toggle it only to show the looking down outside view if needed,   

[Nels_Anderson]

I'm still fairly new to MSFS 2020 so have not fully investigated its display functions.

 

When I run it, I use my main (largest) monitor for the display. But I also have a second monitor and it is possible to undock certain things and move them to the second monitor. For example, if I'm doing a flight where I'm actually going somewhere I'll undock the GPS and move it to the second monitor and enlarge it so I have a nice big navigation display.

 

In a previous computer, I had a thing called TripleHead2Go which allowed me to run three monitors. The computer's video card thought it was driving just a single monitor and the TripleHead2Go split that image between the three screens. It was even clever enough to display the image such that the monitor frames served as window panes and blocked part of the image, just as if you were looking through a three pane window but with the images all properly aligned. That gave a better surround image than what I have now.

[Rupert]

OK I see what you're saying with 2020.  That's not as adaptable as the older sims.  But it beats having only a wider screen.

[PhrogPhlyer]

No matter which version of FS, whatever can be done to create as near real as possible visual is key for helicopter flying, with emphasis on width to add peripheral vision cues.

Placing cockpit panels beneath the main field of view helps replicate RW configuration.

Lately I've been doing most of my flying on a laptop (too lazy to move to the room with larger monitors and addl, flight controls).

After many, many, rooftop and LZ landings, I am finding that my ability to observe minor movements is actually increasing.

So no matter what your visual configuration is, PRACTICE and PATIENCE are still your best friends.