Need some help with helicopters

Good afterevening everyone, I'm not expecting to receive too much help on such specific problems here, but...just in case, as I really don't know other, more suitable places to ask for help on this.

 

I recently decided to engage more into flying choppers, as I have been greatly ignoring them over the years in favor of fixed wing machines, despite having a keen interest in rotary wings too. I do have a small fleet of fine helos with various degrees of fidelity, but that fleet is in dire need of being expanded (it gets lost among all my fixed-wingers). So guess what? I went on and started searching for more helicopters. I decided to look first at the freeware scene and familiarize myself with it before checking up the payware offerings. I already got myself several goodies, mostly from Hovercontrol, but there are 2 simulations that have been giving me headaches, specifically Antti Pankkonen's Dauphin (the FS2004 version) and the Bell 430 by Rory Kelly, Keith and Alan Devins, with the more realistic panel from the Hovercontrol 412 project, both available at Hovercontrol, and the Dauphin (at least) also here on FlightSim.com, as an HH-65 Dauphin of the USCG. Them are the troubles:

 

As far as the Dauphin is concerned, quite simply, the thing's engines won't start. I've done everything the short manual that comes with the FS2002 version says I should do to get the engines running (I've downloaded that just to see if there's any manual), but the engines just spool up a little bit, enough for the RPM needle to reach the lowest end of the RPM arc, and they stay that way, they won't fully burst into life. I've tried messing with the electrical and fuel panel, to no avail.

 

The Bell 430 does start up nicely as per the checklist, and it flies beautifully too...when it does. Thing is, after a few minutes into the flight, for no apparent reason, the 430's engine RPM is decreasing dramatically, and it becomes almost uncontrollable, pitching itself violently down. After hitting the ground and coming to a standstill, I can't take off with it again, the RPM is too low and it won't increase. If I raise the collective to try and take off, the RPM decreases until I lower the collective again, after which the engine RPM increases, but not by much. The rotor RPM however tends to be able to reach the maximum value somehow, but it decreases as soon as I raise the collective.

 

Like I said, these are very specific problems dealing with the intricacies of 2 random simulations, it's probably unlikely anyone can help me with these and I know I should ask these questions over at Hovercontrol, problem is, for some reason my account on their forum doesn't get activated so I can post. But who knows, maybe someone who's familiar with one or both of these birds knows what's wrong with them or what might be that I am doing wrong, if that's the case, please, do enlighten me! Maaan, I'd be so grateful, I'd send you a pizza! :D

 

Dóre

As to the 430, I believe you said you are using a panel from the HC412PE, or a modified version of it, right?

If so, do you open the overhead panel, the electrical and lights control panel, and activate the two inverters? Are the generators active, and the battery off once the inverters are on? Don't wait too long after you start the first engine, I think #2, before you get this stuff done, or the battery will go dead, and then nothing works right.

Do you open the central panel, with the fuel tank switches, radios, and so on? Do you switch the 4 main fuel switches on? Do you switch the Particle Separator switches to Normal vs bypass? Do you switch the 2 hydraulic system switches on?

You must do all that fun stuff fairly quickly, or many bad things can happen...

The HC412PE updated for FSX, comes with a complete checklist. You might try downloading it so you have a good checklist for the panel.

 

On the Dauphin, try, once the engine spools up as high as it will with the starter, hitting shft+ctrl+F4? Are you taking the throttle collars on the collective up one notch, I believe it's 10%, once the N1 begins to show, and then, if the engine catches, up one notch at a time, while monitoring the N1 RPM and EGT to ensure it doesn't overtemp? Then another notch up, let things stabilize, and so on until you get them to 100%? Are you sure the collective is all the way down (F1) before starting the start sequence?

I know, I know, but this is stuff that is required on these machines. I will DL the Dauphin and see what I can see, and the 430 too, although I think I have that one. Can you give me the names of the zip files you DL'd, so I can be certain we're on the same page? I may not be able to solve your troubles but I can try, anyway.

Hope something in all that babbling helps some. I don't remember exactly, but there was something about NOT making either of those two, or the HC412PE, the default flight. In other words, make the default flight either the C172, or even the default Bell 206, then, once that's loaded up, switch to your desire bird. The regular, hanglider over Friday Harbour is a usable default, even. The default FSX flight. Again, start the sim, hit "fly now", and once it's loaded a default FSX plane of whatever sort, and you're sitting on the runway, either running or cold-n-dark, THEN load the 430, for example. Might help...

Pat☺

Nice to hear a comment from the world of helicoptering!

I often lose patience with "partially realistic" helo systems (and there are plenty of those).

 

For these I slew up a little off the ground, and then return to the sim, dropping the helo which almost always starts and maintains the systems for me.

That way I can check out the model and decide if its worth debugging!

 

Have you tried the AW 139?

It has proper systems worth learning, a most rewarding model to operate in the sim. Adding an autopilot adds a whole dimension to flying cross country in it, too.

Just wanted to add a quick note:

To up the "realism" factor a great deal, take a look at HTR v1.62. Helicopter Total Realism. It's available at Hovercontrol, along with a large number of different helicopter configs for it.

It takes the data from the sim on what it wants the helicopter to do, your inputs, changes them to what the real world would be doing to the helicopter, then sends it to you helicopter. It was written by a Aeronautical Engineer (Fred Naar), specialized in helo's, and vetted by a number of real-world helicopter pilots. It's a relatively small add-on program for MSFS, whether FS9 or FSX (including FSX:SE), and seems to have no effect on smoothness or framerates. You can start it with the EXE.xml or "manually".

Also, writing your own config files for it is much easier than you might think, and the documentation included is amazing.

There is a complete forum for it on HoverControl. I suggest, if you want MSFS to be fairly realistic, use it. After all, MSFS is notorious for it's LACK of helicopter realism. Sadly, almost nothing can be done about the lack of "feel" or seat-of-the-pants input to the human involved, buuuut...

A couple articles are available on HC, by the amazing Jordam Moore, on improving the helicopters in MSFS, as well. I can put up the links for them if you desire.

Have fun!

Pat☺

Wow, thanks folks for caring to go into so much detail in trying to assist me with my elusive problems, very much appreciated. The 430 with the HC412PE panel that I'm talking about is not some improvisation or merge done by me, it is available at Hovercontrol, filename "Gmax_Bell_430_HC412", this one. The exact filename of the Dauphin Im using is "us65pkv2.zip" here on FlightSim.com, this one.

 

When starting up the 430, I closely followed the checklist that comes with the package, and yes, I carried out all those thingies you mentioned accordingly. Actually, I always start with the default Cessna 172 flight before choosing my desired aircraft, regardless of what aircraft and what flight I'm about to go for, as the simple default Cessna properly loads up the basic FS aircraft systems so to speak, and prevents most conflicts, errors, incorrect load ups and "complications" that can arise when loading up complex systems of addon aircraft. As a matter of fact, the documentation of this Bell 412/430 panel says I should create a "working flight" that should always be loaded when flying this aircraft, and it describes exactly how to do that. I did just that, so I suppose this can't have anything to do with my issue. I've noticed one thing - I take off with the helo following a smooth start-up, then I land it, reduce the RPM to 45%, then increase the RPM back to 100%, take off again, and that's when the helo tends to go mad. But it has done this to me even without a stopover scenario.

 

This Dauphin simulation (as the real thing I suppose) does not have throttle collars on the collective, bu rather on the overhead panel. The checklist says I should bring the throttle to the "flight" position (full RPM) after hitting the start button of that respective engine. If I click ctrl+shift+F4 after the RPM needle starts to move, the throttle lever goes to the "flight" position (full RPM).

 

I shall take a look at HTR! I've noticed it on Hovercontrol as I was downloading helos, but I didn't bother to see what exactly it was.

 

Thanks again for your efforts guys, so much appreciated!

 

PS.: Charl - Haven't tried any AW139 simulation yet, but I do have the 109 from Hovercontrol by Alan Devins and team (this one) It was originally designed for FS2002, but it's a jewel in 04 as well, well, it fits the bill for me at least, it's not a jump-in-and-fly craft at all. My favorite so far, especially for cross country and sightseeing, is probably the Ka-26 by Nemeth Designs (a special helo for me, read on), I got that a few years back, and it's been a joy to ride it ever since. I have a thing with the Ka-26, as I had the pleasure of seeing (and listening!) one crop dusting the fields a few tens of meters away form my house as a kid several times. I could never forget that unmistakable sound, so perfectly recreated in Nemeth's simulation.

You do have to admire the Kamov design philosphy: co-axial rotor and generally, function before form! :)

Here's a clip I made of the ICARO AW139 startup in FS9: pretty close to the real thing.

And playing with the oil rig:

Also, the Bell 429 although not 100% functional, is a stunning first effort:

 

PT thanks for noting HTR, it's something I have thought about but never got round to. Do you have a link?

Here's HTR: link I've checked it up. Good stuff, but I'll probably go without it, I'm not really deadly serious about helo physics, but that's just me. Enjoyed the vids, the third one's a stunner, lovely scenery!

and generally, function before form! :)

50% of what makes the Ka-26 and other similar machines so appealing :D

Probably your kind of machine, then:

 

Thanks for the link, I will have to give it a go.

I'm actually more into beauties the likes of MD-11 and 757, but an infusion of mesmerizing ugliness is more than welcome to spice things up every now and then. :D

 

I'll have you know I've just test flown the AW139 (the one on Hovercontrol, by Icaros, I suppose that's the one you were mentioning earlier). I studied the manual/its systems in attempting to familiarize myself with the simulation as quickly as possible, as much as possible, so as to try and perform a cold and dark start-up by the book and take a ride on it ASAP, to get to know her. I might have skipped a few system checks on the checklists that I could not immediately identify/locate in the cockpit, I've just assumed they're set properly, while ignoring other less important elements, but considering this is my first time riding it, a day after downloading the simulation, I think I did just fine (probably 95-96% "by-the-book" operation). And sure enough, everything went smoothly, both during start-up and in flight.

 

There's just one thing (at least for now) that confuses me at this AW139 simulation - what's with the multitude of apparently independent autopilots? The manual says the AP on the main panel and the one summoned upon pressing Shift + 6 are 2 distinct AP systems and do not communicate with each other. I should either use one or the other, not both at the same time. Seriously? Why 2 independent AP systems in a helicopter? I suppose this is not the case in the real AW139. But as far as I can tell, there's a third AP system, on the middle console 1 (Shift + 2). That appears to communicate to some degree with the one accessible by pressing Shift + 6. One more thing regarding the AP system. The AP from the Shift + 6 window (the one with the screen), doesn't display the selected altitude once I click the ALT SEL button, to be able to select a desired altitude to be reached and held. If I rotate the button, the altitude bug on the PFD moves accordingly, but the AP's screen does not display the selected altitude. I have this AP system by Antti Pankonen in other helos, and I know for sure the selected AP is displayed on the screen upon clicking on the ALT SEL button. Do you encounter this problem?

 

A few screenies from my test flight:

 

 

Luvly stuff...

 

Do you encounter this problem?

I think that the ICARO group kept certain features out of the public release version, hence the anomalies.

There are various flavours of Antti's AP.

I have them strewn across sub models of the AW139 and some work better than others.

Just drop in your favourite one.

In all cases, is the one that flies the aircraft.

Got it, thanks! I managed to replace the Shift + 6 AP in the AW139 with the "flavor" that comes with ICARO's BK117. That one not only displays the selected altitude on the screen, it can even maintain both altitude and airspeed at the same time by managing the collective, I guess (the equivalent of autothrottle, it would seem to me). Didn't realize this when I flight-tested the BK117... Anyways, I eventually decided to keep the AW139 with the original APs, as it came from the ICARO's factory.

Good on you!

Now... Approaching your favourite airport on AP, transition to hover and land.

(Anywhere within the airport boundary counts :) )

 

OK, it took me some time, but I finally found a workaround to fire up the Dauphin - oddly enough, the collective needs to be raised slightly, as you're starting the engines. Do this, and the engines fully come to life. You might think I kept fooling around with the controls and that's how I found the workaround, but no, what happened was that I actually downloaded FSPainter's excellent AS350 for FS9, which exhibited the exact same problem as the Dauphin, the engine won't fully start up, it just freezes shortly upon beginning to spool up. So I consulted Google to see if anyone knows about this helo's start-up problems and how to make it work, and I actually found someone asking help on that very problem, for that very helo, on some forum, and someone replied and said the collective needs to be raised a bit during engine start-up, and it should work. I tried it myself, and it worked like a charm. Then, it hit me - how about I try that on the Dauphin? I tried it and voila - the engines came to life. :) I just wanted to mention I found this solution, just in case this thread might help somebody else one day.

 

PS: I see I can now post on Hovercontrol, so I'll ask about the Bell 430 problem there, when I get time.