Aircraft Creates Sparks When Wheels on Ground?

I have been editing a seaplane I recently downloaded so that the floats aren't so submerged in the water. I'm new to editing contact points in the.cfg but I managed to fix that issue (somewhat). But now when I am taxiing on land, the front nose wheels and sometimes the rear gear create sparks even though the floats aren't touching the ground.

Is there a way to edit the aircraft.cfg file so it isn't "scrapping" on the ground? I know there is one way; make the contact point values for the landing gear lower, but that would make the aircraft look like it is hovering above ground, right?

I'm not sure, but I think the sparks are from the floats touching the runway. That would not cause a crash.

It may be the 'scrapes' touching the runway. Also defined in contact points section. But, they would cause a crash when touching down too hard I think.

I expect it's the floats. You lowered them a bit to much when you adjusted things. You could raise then a bit to prevent the sparks.

Lowering the gear points would also prevent the sparks, but the visual model will indeed float a bit above the runway.

Choices...

No need to edit your (Contact_points) section. Whenever an AC has floats, I usually edit the (Effects) section of aircraft cfg. I don't need sparks, or spray, or even scrapes (type 2 cnt pts). My (Effects) is like this:

[EFFECTS]

wake = fx_wake

water = fx_spray.boo

dirt = fx_tchdrt

concrete = fx_sparks.boo

touchdown = fx_tchdwn_s, 1

As you can see the sparks are 'disabled' with the '.boo' suffix. This was 'coded' by Bill Lyons way back when. The spray is also 'disabled' as I hate the default spray as it's TOO MUCH (not real anyway). The '_s' add to tchdwn will suppress the tire smoke upon landing to a '_s'mall amount which is much better. Cheers.

Chuck B

Napamule

Editing contact points is an art and not easy. The sparks are indicating you have a non-wheel contact point below the wheels.

Rather than removing effects, use them to understand and learn how to edit contact points (if that's what you want to do) or acquire aircraft which have been properly coded.

-Pv-

I'm not sure, but I think the sparks are from the floats touching the runway. That would not cause a crash.

Yes i know for a fact it's the floats that fsx thinks is touching the runway. I only edited the contact points for the floats, which I learned is defined with the first value being 4 in the contact points section.

However, I don't know how the contact points of the wheels are defined, so I can't edit that yet.

No need to edit your (Contact_points) section. Whenever an AC has floats, I usually edit the (Effects) section of aircraft cfg.

I would do that except I still want the spark effect in place for when i do crash or something lol.

Editing contact points is an art and not easy. The sparks are indicating you have a non-wheel contact point below the wheels.

 

Rather than removing effects, use them to understand and learn how to edit contact points (if that's what you want to do) or acquire aircraft which have been properly coded.

 

-Pv-

Lol I figured out it wasn't easy just by looking at the contact points section. I do want to learn about what some of the values mean, I found out the X,y, and z values but the rest I have no clue of what they do. And this particular aircraft I am editing is absolutely beautiful (for freeware) but it is also not very popular so I'm not sure any others would have a properly coded .cfg.

Well, you can't edit to compensate for the wheels being extended 100% of the time (actually are pontoons) but still, the same 'difference'. If the wheels were retractable then he could put the floats closer to the hull bottom. But since the 'gear' area is 'sticking out' he CAN'T place floats any closer (ie: Grumman Mallard). So this is when you CAN edit (with no detrimental effect to Sim or AC) the (Effects) section to not have sparks (which are 'for show' anyway).

I have been doing cnt pts since FS98 and I love to work on and fix AC with messed up cnt pts section. It's hard, but very gratifying, work (for me).

Chuck B

Napamule

Yeah I might just turn off sparks on the aircraft until i can better understand contact points.

Btw, Is there anyway to eliminate the bobbing up and down in the water, i want the floats to be a little more on the the surface, but when I do, the bobbing effect first makes it look like it is normal and then the aircraft bobs up and makes it look like the floats are almost completely out of the water!

Any fix you know of?

Quote: '..I still want the spark effect..'

Well you can't eat your cake and have it too. Make up your mind (hehe).

Quote: '..others would have a properly coded .cfg'

Well tell me which zip (I know it's from Milton Shupe OR from Brian Gladden) and I will look at it for you. If you want to learn, I can coach you via email. I am retired and sim 24/7 so am available at all hours (no limit-ha). PM me your email.

Chuck B

Napamule

Just as info:

You can find a definition of the contact points in the b737_800 aircraft.cfg file.

Just above it's contact point is a list of definitions/descriptions. Each number describing a column in the contact points section.

Copy that section and paste it above the contact points in your aircraft.

It helps to add a line like this, just above your contact points. Start the line with // so it is seen as a commentary by fsx, and is not executed.

this line:

//----------------0-----1-----2------3-----4----5----6-----7-----8----9----10----11--12--13--14---15

(so you can easily identify the columns.)

Also, even with a float point just a bit higher then a gear point, it could still produce sparks.

There is gear compression simulated. Gear is compressed by aircraft weight (more with full tanks). Also there is compression due to landing forces. So on landing the gear struts get compressed and the float may touch the runway if they are not placed high enough. Compression acts like springs absorbing the landing forces. Editing that could lead to crashes.

(No springs and gear would break on landing)

Quote: '(No springs and gear would break on landing)'. Not if you have crash detection turned off. And gear not having compression (springs?) does not lead to crash or gear damage. Doing a HARD landing is what is involved. Not 'visuals' like gear compression.

Since most cnt pts lines are so different as to spacing, number or zeros, etc, the 'Legend' line with numbers will almost never line up with it's corresponding value(s). I never use that. I edit to where all the values are lined up vertically all the way to the end. That way I can spot any errors more easily. The numbers don't show me nothing. Struggle if you want.

The floats are BEST (recommended, usually, preferably, etc) placed INSIDE the gear area (ie: Lon, Lat and Vert). The sparks are due to the floats being placed OUTSIDE the gear area. Why? Because sometimes you CAN'T place a float inside the gear area due to model and the way it was constructed (ie: can't be 'fixed' with cnt pt edits).

Chuck B

Napamule

Trick I use to edit contact points (warning this is complicated):

I use the pilot viewpoint and here's how:

Place the model all dead and shut down and EMPTY tanks on a surface with a lot of static detail. I like to use the stripes at the end of the runway.

Line up the aircraft parts you want to edit using slew and external views with distinct portion of the scenery detail. Helopads work, but I can usually get the whole plane lined up on stripes in a useful way. The topdown is particularly useful.

SAVE THE FLIGHT. Name it something useful.

Make a copy of the pilot viewpoint line and paste it under the original. Comment the original.

Using the existing point code as a guide, set the pilot viewpoint to the same coords as a contact point you want to inspect.

You will have to change the perspective a bit by moving at least one pilot coord a few feet away. Switch to 3D panel view and observe. You may have to zoom in or out a bit.

You will soon see any error in the contact point coords OR your pilot viewpoint because your view will not line up with the part. If you have to edit your pilot view, that's an indication the contact point is not where the 3D model displays it. Edit the pilot ciew so it lines up with the point. This is where it REALLY IS on the 3D model.

Use the hatswitch to rotate around. Make a complete copy of all the contact points and do the same as with the pilot view (paste and comment.)

Now start editing your copy to change ONE coord of ONE point at a time. Save the cfg file and reset the plane (cntrl-;) Again go to the pilot view point and inspect from all angles. Edit, rinse and repeat. It may take you 2-100 tries to edit each point, but the results will be VERY EXACT to the 3D model, not some hacking guess.

Keep editing the pilot viewpoint to inspect the different parts, nose, tail, etc.

The original 3D modeler had the advantage of being able to view the 3D model wireframe and know exactly where every part is.

-Pv-

Tags: pilot viewpoint contact points edit aircraft.cfg

Btw, Is there anyway to eliminate the bobbing up and down in the water, i want the floats to be a little more on the the surface, but when I do, the bobbing effect first makes it look like it is normal and then the aircraft bobs up and makes it look like the floats are almost completely out of the water!

Any fix you know of?

This below worked for me when I wanted to make the floats on some planes sit/bob higher or lower in the water, it takes some trial and error to get the numbers right, but you get there in the end..:)

EDITING FLOATS (edit red columns)

[contact_points]

max_number_of_points =11

point.0= 4, 8.719, 5.175, -9.0, 1600, 0, 0, 0, .85, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

point.1= 4, 8.719, -5.175, -9.0, 1600, 0, 0, 0, .85, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 3, 0, 0

point.2= 4, -12.12, 5.175, -7.0, 1600, 0, 0, 0, .85, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0

point.3= 4, -12.12, -5.175, -7.0, 1600, 0, 0, 0, .85, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 0

Contact pts- The first number after the equal sign defines the class, or what type of point it is.

The options for that number are...

Integer defining the type of contact point: 0 = None, 1 = Wheel, 2 = Scrape, 3 = Skid, 4 = Float, 5 = Water Rudder

-------------------------------

The numbers in red are the distance in feet that the contact points are below the reference point...

point.4=4, -15.000, -4.250, -2.500, 1068.000, 0.000, 0.512, 20.000, 0.800, 2.500, 0.700, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.0

point.5=4, -15.000, 4.250, -2.500, 1068.000, 0.000, 0.512, 20.000, 0.800, 2.500, 0.700, 0.000, 0.000,1.000, 0.000, 0.0

point.6=4, 5.350, -4.250, -2.700, 268.000, 1.000, 0.512, 0.000, 0.800, 2.500, 0.700, 0.000, 0.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.0

point.7=4, 5.350, 4.250, -2.700, 268.000, 2.000, 0.512, 0.000, 0.800, 2.500, 0.700, 0.000,0.000, 3.000, 0.000, 0.0

Those are the numbers you want to change.

The first numbers after =4 define the contact point location fore and aft.

The second numbers after =4 define the contact point location right and left.

The third numbers after =4 define the contact point location up and down.

Positive numbers are fore, right and up.

Negative numbers are aft, left and down.

Just as info:

You can find a definition of the contact points in the b737_800 aircraft.cfg file.

Just above it's contact point is a list of definitions/descriptions. Each number describing a column in the contact points section.

//0 Class

4=float not 3.

The only number you'll want to change is the vertical component.

4th entry after the "="

For WHEELS: Parked on a plain apron, Summer, 10AM shadows on.

Make the tire meet the shadow and take out an inch(0.083).

That assures good "Contact".

For FLOATS reduce the 4th digit and test for sparks. Rinse/repeat.

Test in the water. There may be a trade of sparks vs sunken...Don

Paul,

That's not the way to do it. You are 'hurting' yourself (hehe). Use (Lights) so you can see where cnt pts are. But don't just put where the wheels are. Adjust so your AC is 'balanced' and so it is able to turn.

I worked on this Amphib last night. Still not 100% but much better. Use my head..

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beech D18S Amphib Cargo, by M Shupe, 2/2008 (BeechD-18Samph.zip at Simviation)

[Lights] //TEMP - For alignment of Cnt Pts

//Types:1=beacon, 2=strobe, 3=navigation, 4=cockpit, 5=landing

//------Gear

light.0= 1,12.00, -6.35, -8.13, fx_navred,

light.1= 1,12.00, 6.35, -8.13, fx_navred,

light.2= 1, -3.00, -6.50, -8.25, fx_navred,

light.3= 1, -3.00, 6.50, -8.25, fx_navred,

//---FLOATS

light.4= 1,11.25, -6.20, -6.40, fx_navgre,

light.5= 1,11.25, 6.20, -6.40, fx_navgre,

light.6= 1, -1.03, -6.40, -6.20, fx_navgre,

light.7= 1, -1.03, 6.40, -6.20, fx_navgre

//--- CENTER

light.8= 1, 0.00, 0.00, 6.00, fx_navgre, //Center

//

[contact_points]

point.0=1, 12.00, -6.35, -8.13, 2200, 0, 0.400, 90, 0.20, 2.5, 0.80, 3, 4, 0, 139, 175.2

point.1=1, 12.00, 6.35, -8.13, 2200, 0, 0.400, 90, 0.20, 2.5, 0.80, 3, 4, 1, 139, 175.2

point.2=1, -3.00, -6.50, -8.25, 2200, 1, 0.512, 0, 0.25, 2.5, 0.60, 4, 5, 2, 139, 175.2

point.3=1, -3.00, 6.50, -8.25, 2200, 2, 0.512, 0, 0.25, 2.5, 0.60, 4, 5, 3, 139, 175.2

//

point.4=4, 11.25, -6.20, -6.40, 3000, 0, 0.000, 0, 0.10, 4.5, 1.00, 0, 0, 4, 0.00, 0.00

point.5=4, 11.25, 6.20, -6.40, 3000, 0, 0.000, 0, 0.10, 4.5, 1.00, 0, 0, 4, 0.00, 0.00

point.6=4, -1.03, -6.40, -6.20, 3000, 0, 0.000, 60, 0.10, 4.5, 1.00, 0, 0, 4, 0.00, 0.00

point.7=4, -1.03, 6.40, -6.20, 3000, 0, 0.000, 60, 0.10, 4.5, 1.00, 0, 0, 4, 0.00, 0.00

max_number_of_points = 12

static_pitch = 1.5

static_cg_height = 8.35

gear_system_type = 1

Hope you like.

Chuck B

Napamule

PS: You do not need (or 'want') type 5 cnt pts (water rudder) as the floats have steering capability (60.000) that work better..

I use the ShowMarkers utility. It graphically shows about every coordinate on the plane.

Can't remember where I got it from, but Google lead me to this http://blackiceair.net/Tools.html (bottom left)

This is how it looks like (the red crosshairs)

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy176/buffalo2602/ScreenHunter_01Jan312219_zpsce3647b6.jpg

Wim

Looks like you have to be looking front to back (centered) and not from the side. Here is what I get, after 5 mins of adding lines, dots, and text. I get view from ALL sides. When I move a cnt pt I move the light. Much quicker. But, to each his own.

Chuck B

Napamule

Hey thx for providing useful information for me to napamule2, pvarn, and the rest of you. I never thought of using lights to show where contact points are on the aircraft, so thx for that suggestion napamule. I will be using this thread as a reference a lot in the future lol.

Thanks guys!

The lights concept works ok for external parts, not so good for things like jet engines and tanks. The showmarkers works pretty good, but is designed for average aircraft. Some placements for exotic aircraft doesn't work so good. Looks like it was coded to only show main and center fuel. FS has so many more tanks available. None of my planes has fewer than four.

The tool also assumes the distance from apex to ref cord is always the wing tip. Not so on planes with chines or canards in which there is significant lift being generated forward of the wing apex. The only contact surfaces identified are the defined landing mechanisms.

Still, a useful tool combined with the lights technique.

-Pv-

"Visualizer" is a more robust tool than "ShowMarkers" in that it displays all fuel tanks, as well as all scrape points.

http://fsdeveloper.com/forum/resources/visualizer-fsx-or-p3d.134/

I've found it invaluable in quickly setting up aircraft for the sim.

As for the float plane, the simplest solution is to comment out (or adjust) all scrape points in the aircraft.cfg file.

Pardon the intrusion, Mr. Leaming, that Visualizer tool looks extremely useful. Would there be an FS2004 version, by any chance? I looked around on the website you gave but it's all devoted to FSX/P3D it seems...

Thanks in advance for any info at all, even a negative answer.

Pat☺

Quote: 'As for the float plane, the simplest solution is to comment out (or adjust) all scrape points in the aircraft.cfg file.

In the earlier post you do not see any scrapes. I don't use them if there are floats. Just commenting out the scrapes won't necessarily 'equal' to a solution. Sometimes you have to move the gear AND the floats in order to MAKE the aircraft operate correctly when in the water. And in this case, even on land, as it was very hard to make turns due to gear positons. Trial & Error is the only way sometimes.

Chuck B

Napamule

Edit: And that includes the compression part of the equation. In this case the front gear animation was so 'loose' it could be considered 'spastic'. No technical terms could be used or are available as this is 'virgin territory' with no 'bible' or ref manual. So you have to have experience at it to prevail. Anything else (edits/tweaks) would be equal to a wild goose chase or chasing your own tail and would take a noob a month (a year? Never?) to figure out.