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Thread: Question - FRG & NY App Control

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.
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    33

    Default Question - FRG & NY App Control

    I was wondering if any real-world fliers could help me with a situation.
    I routinely visit a friend at FRG and fly there direct from PNE. The first flight was busy but painless. However, the subsequent flights have been frought with confusion, resulting in my having to call FRG's tower and, on another occasion, NY TRACON. As one might imagine, it was a tad unnerving.
    What ticks me off is that I followed their directives as instructed. When in the Bravo, do as you're told, I learned. Ideally, I would pass the tip of Sandy Hook (NJ), paralell the coast of Long Island south of JFK and enter a holding pattern over Jones Beach Memorial. At that point, I'd be out of the Bravo and waiting for Delta clearance. But the last time, NY App vectored me near the outer marker of FRG. Before I knew it, I was INSIDE the Delta and surprised the bejesus outta the guy in the tower!! Let me tell ya the excitement THAT caused >:). Anyway, the only way to get around that issue is to circumvent Bravo airspace entirely, by coming over the north of all Bravo airspace. As scenic as it promises to be, I do NOT want to have to do this every time.
    If you can offer any suggestions on how I should deal with NY App contol, I'm all ears. Thanks muchly in advance.


    Quentin J. Parker, ASEL, PA28-140/161, KPNE
    Wild Wind Flight Simulator 2004, PA28-181 Archer (DF)
    Taurion LOCK ON: Modern Air Combat, Su-27 Flanker
    ___________________________________________
    Quentin J. Parker, ASEL, Taurion • Wild Wind • Flyboy Q
    PA28-181/-161 • VFR • KPNE/KSFF

  2. #2
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    ***AFTER Looking at the Sectional again, and writing all the stuff I did, I come to the conclusion that your controller screwed up big time, or you misunderstood and flew the wrong way. Since you didn't get in trouble, I assume both TWR and APP found that it was probably APPs fault.***

    Me Thinks....dont take my word for it, I am a "noob" pilot.

    1. After looking at the NY Sectional copy that I have which is a million years old, and looks it, I still really think you should have been handed off from APP to TWR. I see that the South side of Republic(FRG) is covered by class B with a floor at 4000, and FRGs is only up to 2300. Maybe thats a black hole controllers dump you in, thats pretty dirty.

    2. If you picked up a flight following with center, and told them your destination and direction of flight "Direct" (and altitude...)then since you are radar contact and all that fun stuff you should be able to just get handed off like any IFR bird. So from Center to APP to Tower, and I think if they dumped you at the marker, they probably meant to continue inbound and contact the tower....either that or the controller was a "NOOB." It is illegal for them to dump you in another controllers airspace.....I think.

    3. Like you said, stay clear of all airspace but the class D. But looking at that chart, that would take you pretty far out over the ocean to stay clear, way more than gliding distance, so probably not a good idea unless you got floaties and a good plane. If you can't, call approach over a reporting point(Sandy Hook), tell him your intentions, and hope he clears you right through immediatly. I still think they should hand you off to the tower, doesn't make sense that they don't.


    -Did you inform Approach that you were landing at Republic(FRG)?

    -Also, I am sure you know, in a slow bird keep your speed up all the way to short final(110kias +) when in those busy places IF IT IS SAFE. Makes ATC Happy.


    I remember going into PIA once in a Cessna 152, I had a Swissconsin(air wisconsin/UAL) BAe 146 #2 behind me, I kept my altitude and dropped like a rock, going like 130kias, it was nuts, landed just past the ##s, and taxiied off, tower thanked me for speed, I advised taxi back, then took off behind a Falcon BizJet, which took off behind an F-16.


    http://www.fsuniverse.com/meyer/abov.../meyer_sig.jpg

  3. #3
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    I hope you have a GPS with a moving map display. It is almost manditory in the Northeast.

    Be sure that the controllers know exactly what you want. When you are in Class B, you are expected to fly to at the very least instrument pilot standards or you will be shut out really fast. You have to question things right away if your VFR.

    The easiest way out is to get the instrument rating and file. It may be convoluted but you don't worry about getting cleared into airspaces, your flight plan is taken care of automatically and you are assured of being watched. The rating is not just for flying in the clouds. When it gets hazy hot and humid and visibility drops to 5 miles, even though it is technically VFR I file IFR. Not because I can't see the ground very well, but because there are a heck of a lot of guys out there I do not want to bore holes into me.

    NOTE: once in a while approach gets busy and doesn't get a chance to call the tower. Happens between Albany approach and Schenectady County tower all the time. Sometimes Albany hangs on to you right to the bitter end then HELLO SCHENECTADY..look who's comming to dinner! Just keep your eyes open and question anything you don't understand



  4. #4
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    I've heard that flying in the Northeast can be a bit trying at times and the controllers are less than helpful. Down here in the midwest, I've always had the controller hand me off to the tower even if I'm just on flight following.

    As for your problem, if you know you are about to bust FRG's class D, simply request a frequency change from the controller and that might kick him into gear. I don't know how you managed to get from the outer marker to inside the D without either the controller or you saying anything.

  5. #5
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    Bronx, New York, USA.
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    Hello Quentin... I left you a message in your inbox. :-wave

  6. #6
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    Hey Ron, what do you think? FRG Man.

    http://www.fsuniverse.com/meyer/abov.../meyer_sig.jpg

  7. #7
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    Where you still working with NY Approach when you busted the Delta? If you were, that's the approach controller's job to "point out" the traffic that he's going through the surface area with...

  8. #8
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    Mar 2005
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    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    >Where you still working with NY Approach when you busted the
    >Delta? If you were, that's the approach controller's job to
    >"point out" the traffic that he's going through the surface
    >area with...

    At the risk of sounding like I'm waffling (as this was some months ago), I'm almost positive that was the case.

    Something I didn't point out earlier, but you probably could've guessed...
    In everyone's defense, it was especially busy each time I had to call the controllers. I remember the last incident in particular took place on the very first day of VFR flying in the northeast after several days of rain and IFR conditions. I was surprised at the traffic level everywhere, not just Class B.


    Quentin J. Parker, ASEL, PA28-140/161, KPNE
    Wild Wind Flight Simulator 2004, PA28-181 Archer (DF)
    Taurion LOCK ON: Modern Air Combat, Su-27 Flanker
    ___________________________________________
    Quentin J. Parker, ASEL, Taurion • Wild Wind • Flyboy Q
    PA28-181/-161 • VFR • KPNE/KSFF

  9. #9
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    New York.
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    I wouldn't say that the controllers are not helpful up here, far from it. They do not have time to handle weekend pilots. When it is busy you are expected to know what the drill and to do what you are told. This means when they tell you to fly this heading and climb or descend they mean NOW, not when you get around to it after stowing maps, figuring where you are, doing a hundred and one things you should have done on the ground.

    How they handle you is all determined by how you come across on the radio. If you sound professional and know what you are doing, they will move heaven and earth to accomodate reasonable requests. Stumble, make them repeat and you are gonna get the grand tour of the northeast states.

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Default RE: Question - FRG & NY App Control

    And don't think ATCers don't remember callsigns...I do!! I know some I hear and just cringe!

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