Sim vs real life

So anytime I fly in real life, I feel like it’s a pretty straight cruise. In other words, the only time the jet turns is after takeoff and during approach.

In the sim, however, following waypoints aren’t straight shots; there are many turns involved. Doesn’t seem real to me.

I’ve been curious about this since FSX. Why is that?

Thanks.

So anytime I fly in real life, I feel like it’s a pretty straight cruise. In other words, the only time the jet turns is after takeoff and during approach.

It's at least partly because you are deceived in real life about a "pretty straight cruise." Certainly there are long stretches that are straight, but I suspect there are many turns (done gently, with shallow bank) that you never even notice. But a lot depends on the means of navigation you use in the sim, too, as well as where you fly in real vs sim.

But, in accord with the above, you notice the turns and such more in the sim at least partly because you are doing the piloting, and because the sim may not be making turns as gently as they sometimes do in real life.

One example that I see here a lot is the path to the west from Denver International. I'm quite a ways west of DEN and watch the departures go by, all on the same SID, with destinations from San Diego and LA to Boise, Spokane, Salt Lake City, Portland and others, yet at some point beyond where I can follow them they turn in the various directions they need to go.

But more than that, some (once they're off of the SID and back to normal nav) are cleared direct and some via various routings, but so many of the turns are just very gentle, occasionally with as little as 5º bank.

I expect those who actually fly the real world airlines (I'm mostly light aircraft) can elaborate on this some, and/or correct me.

Possibly.

I remember in FSX I could do direct routes and not use the FMC at all, and it was a straight line flight to the destination.

Even a short flight in MSFS (Vegas to Reno, for example), has a couple waypoints that require banks as you say, but in my real life flight, it seemed to be a straight shot.

VIP Member, due to the way the human 'sense of balance' works your are unable to detect most of the turns and banks a real plane makes during the flight. This may lead to loss of situational awareness ......

A function of the lack of awareness cues, most likely. Aviating involves ALL your motion senses, desktoppin` doesn't. I cannot tell when I'm not aviating fer real... Also all IFR flight involves straight-to routes in my experience, now that very little real flying involves flying VOR to VOR these days. But there are most routes that will involve joining and leaving the airway with turns to and from the course needed...

Also airlines are interested in passenger comfort and a sudden steep turn would not be appreciated.

It must be said, pilots of airliners are also mindful of crew needs avoiding sudden steep turns as trollies and what-have-you are not fitted with anti-gravity brakes to my certain knowledge!

VIP Member, due to the way the human 'sense of balance' works ......

piet,

That "VIP Member" notation is something that many folks here will have noted on every post, just as yours says "Member" and mine says "Top Gun" -- those are automatically put in by the forum software and come from the number of posts. The person you were addressing is King Norris, as it says on the line above VIP member.

Further to the above, and erudite, replies from Larry and Mark; I'm a lifelong motorcyclist and bikes bank when turning just like planes. While riding the bike, you can't 'feel' the turn at all, the only clues you have are visual. If you're on a plane with me, in the middle aisle at the back in cattle class, you don't get any visual clues at all - just a slight feeling of pressure to one side of the seat or the other, which is centrifugal force pushing you the opposite way to the turn direction. True story:

I was on a flight where the pilot/co-pilot kicked the rudder sharply to the right twice after take-off and flung all of us in cattle class to the left.

A guy in the row behind panicked. My wife turned around and asked him if he was scared of heights - he replied "No, I replace cables on electricity pylons - I just don't like planes!".

There are numerous flights in FSX where there could be many course changes if you select waypoint navigation.

This is esp. true in mountainous areas of countries, and perhaps more so upon take-off or decent.

I just "flew" from Anchorage (ANC) to Seattle (SEA)and there were at least 6 course deviations (from a straight-line flight option).

piet,

 

That "VIP Member" notation is something that many folks here will have noted on every post, just as yours says "Member" and mine says "Top Gun" -- those are automatically put in by the forum software and come from the number of posts. The person you were addressing is King Norris, as it says on the line above VIP member.

It’s ok, I know he was referring to me.

Thanks for the answer guys. Makes sense, all of them.

(Incidentally, in the “how’d you pick your screen name” category, King Norris was the band name of a Howard Stern radio show crew member.)

(Incidentally, in the “how’d you pick your screen name” category, King Norris was the band name of a Howard Stern radio show crew member.)

Now that's about as cool as it gets!

If you're on a plane with me, in the middle aisle at the back in cattle class, you don't get any visual clues at all - just a slight feeling of pressure to one side of the seat or the other, which is centrifugal force pushing you the opposite way to the turn direction.

If the pilot keeps it coordinated, you won't even feel that. If you feel ANY side-to-side movement then the pilot isn't quite doing rudder properly (might be very close, though), though the very mild sensation in shallow banks (along with other swept-wing/jet characteristics) keep that very minimal in normal operation. And you'll have to be relaxed even to feel that much.

It was often a struggle to get students to notice the "seat-of-the-pants" feeling until I could get them to relax, so I would have them sit absolutely limp in the seat while I manipulated the rudder in various ways, along with verbal description, until they finally got it. THEN I'd cover the ball and let them try without the ball visible.

Once you really learn to feel that, you can look out at the wingtip, back across your shoulder, or most anywhere else and still feel that lack of coordination, such that I have been asked, "How can you tell" or "Boy you're good." But with practice anyone can do that. You just have to know what you're "looking" for.

Further to the above, and erudite, replies from Larry and Mark; I'm a lifelong motorcyclist and bikes bank when turning just like planes. While riding the bike, you can't 'feel' the turn at all, the only clues you have are visual.

Thanks for the compliment :cool: Yes, I used to ride a lot too, and I found that it is actually easier in an aircraft to keep your head vertical relative to the aircraft than it is to do so relative to a motorcycle, but with practice it can be done, and provides an interesting sensation, compared to letting your head remain vertical with respect to the ground.

On a related, but separate note, instrument pilots must be even more aware of various illusions, since some can occur undetected without an external visual reference. A very interesting thing happened to me many years back (I was a fairly new CFII at the time)- I rode a vertigo chair during an FAA seminar on, among other things, vertigo.

The vertigo chair is a high chair (that is, feet don't reach the ground) in which the seat spins VERY freely, and which has a side-stick mounted to the arm of the chair. They put a set of goggles on you which completely obscure your vision, but give you little blue lights to view.

Now they have you sit up straight with those goggles on and hand on the stick. They instruct you to move the stick in the direction you are rotating, and then start you spinning. Of course you move the stick to that direction, but then you feel you are gradually slowing, so the stick works its way back to neutral as you feel that you have stopped. People outside can see that you are still spinning at a good clip, but your inner ear has deceived you.

Then they have you slowly reach over as if you were picking up a pencil off of the floor of the "aircraft," gradually get you stopped, then when you feel you have stopped they say, "Sit up." When I did, I felt as if I were literally spinning head over heels, even though I was sitting on a stool on the floor not moving at all.

I guarantee that made a believer out of me about vertigo. And it was instructive to also watch someone else go through the same thing, so you can see both sides of it.

Fascinating.

Morning, to top this off, I will give just a little perspective on top of the other responses. In the real world, we plan our flights based on fuel efficiency and traffic flow. This may result in routes that are more streamlined based on efficiency or they could be less streamlined based on weather/traffic flow. I've had to sit an airport for an hour occasionally(ground stop) because the North East could not accept us into the flow. As others have mentioned, George is designed to be gentle while flying so you won't pick up those gentle turns, especially when your eyes are not referencing the horizon. I've gotten a false sense of turn/banking when looking at a sloping cloud deck on the horizon in the evening. Very strange feeling when your instruments are level, but the clouds on the horizon give off a feeling of a slight bank.

Another issue to contend with is the way FSX and other sims handle routing in their flight planning. You will see a lot of weird things such as way points that are way off course/out of the way. If possible, I recommend using programs such as simbrief that will give more realistic routing with departure procedures and STARs. You can also use skyvector and other sites to build the route yourself.

I do use Simbrief. And yes, it’s FP seems more “streamline” as compared to MSFS’s FP.

I guess having never been a pilot and never been in the pilots seat, your analysis is correct, in that, as a passenger, I don’t feel the gentle turns and also I don’t stare out the window during the whole flight.

Possibly.

 

I remember in FSX I could do direct routes and not use the FMC at all, and it was a straight line flight to the destination.

 

Even a short flight in MSFS (Vegas to Reno, for example), has a couple waypoints that require banks as you say, but in my real life flight, it seemed to be a straight shot.

It is still possible in MSFS. Select Direct GPS on the flight plan screen.