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Landing problems STILL! after seventeen years.


HoratioWondersocks

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Hello All

 

I have been flying FS9 for seventeen years now.

I am ashamed to say after all this time and Gawd knows how many flights, I still can't land on the centerline.

I have all the right approach conditions, flaps correct, App engaged correct speed, etc etc. but no blinking cigar.

At a few miles out, everything looks fine, heading right at the centre line but as I get closer to touch down the ground approx. fifty feet to landing I invariably find myself slowly veering off course, and have to try and inelegantly pull on the stick to at least get some sort of landing where no one would have died.

 

PS

I fly ninety-five/six per cent airliners by the way.

I am beginning to wonder whether there is some psychology going on here perhaps I will lose interest in the sim if I finally crack the landing?

Actually, I don't really believe that. In fact a load of old cobblers; But! every flight I take is really about the landing, although I still enjoy all the other aspects of flight.

I know there are many variables to consider in a landing, but any info you may have would be appreciated.

 

 

Thank Andy

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Joined your club, I'm a lousy pilot, I tried that 'Autoland' thingy a while ago, it kind of worked but I probably wasn't doing it right.

 

I got the AirHauler program and started flying the routes in the Cessna, I got not too bad at the landing, some bumpy ones but I made it. I was going to say instead of the airliners try something slower and smaller.

 

Funny though I was watching one of those air crash investigation videos and on one of them there was an airline pilot who always used the autopilot to land, turned out he wasn't that good a pilot and course on this video he crashed. So in real life there are some like us, scary when you think about it.

 

Col.

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Your description sounds as if you may be looking too close to the aircraft in the last bit of a landing, when you should be looking at the far end of the runway, and perhaps you are relaxing instead of flying the airplane until it comes to a stop. And maybe you're actually trying to LAND the airplane instead of getting it a foot or two off of the ground and holding it there with power at idle.

 

However perhaps you are weak on the fundamentals, so I have to ask:

 

How much of your flying is done manually rather than using the autopilot (it DOES take practice)? Have you tried going back to basics and starting with a Cessna, working through lessons, or even just practicing takeoff and landing? Have you ever done various practice maneuvers in flight, such as turns maintaining altitude within 100 feet, climbing and descending turns, straight and level holding altitude within 100 feet and heading within 10º, preferably even 5º, all manually?

 

Do you stare at the gauges until near the ground (or even then), or do you try to maintain a specific attitude of the aircraft by looking out the window?

 

In real life (just as true in the sim), when someone has trouble with basic flying, the solution is to literally go back to basics, even if they've been licensed for many years. It's effective on most people, and on those it isn't it's because they don't work at it. And the basics are learning to fly straight and level (not as easy as it sounds, harder in the sim), climbing and descending turns, changing airspeeds from one steady speed to another, predesignated speed (70 kts to 60 kts, for example), doing ground reference maneuvers (tough to do many of these in the sim, but TO&L is ground reference too), and doing all of this while mostly looking outside, not at the panel.

 

With my students I always, before solo, would get them sufficiently proficient that, besides all the things the FAA required, they could fly in the practice area with my coat draped over the instrument panel, then they had to fly the complete traffic pattern (TO&L) a few times with that coat over the panel.

 

So back to basics might be your answer, and that is much easier in a light aircraft where things don't happen so fast and where there's not as much inertia to cause momentary delays in the aircraft response to your inputs.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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Joined your club, I'm a lousy pilot, I tried that 'Autoland' thingy a while ago, it kind of worked but I probably wasn't doing it right.

 

I got the AirHauler program and started flying the routes in the Cessna, I got not too bad at the landing, some bumpy ones but I made it. I was going to say instead of the airliners try something slower and smaller.

 

Funny though I was watching one of those air crash investigation videos and on one of them there was an airline pilot who always used the autopilot to land, turned out he wasn't that good a pilot and course on this video he crashed. So in real life there are some like us, scary when you think about it.

 

Col.

 

Col refreshing honesty and humor on your part

And Zippy I admire your don't get too hung about things and just enjoy the sim attitude

Actually, while I am here Zip you described to me once how you used Toga for takeoff .

If you could refresh me I would appreciate that.

 

I will keep plugging away as I have for the last seventeen years.

In another seventeen I could well be in the great departure lounge in the sky.

So I better get flying tonight as usual with hope in my heart.

I wonder if lager could be contributing factor? to my landing woes

Perhaps I am seeing two runways?

 

cheers Andy

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Works fine!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]227521[/ATTACH]

 

OMG Charlie! Every time I see the acronym TOGA I think of this film... Didn't John Belushi's character in Animal House become a Senator? If he was still around he'd probably be one in real life by now, or a Governor.

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

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Use the system we real pilots use:

Don't aim for the runway; aim instead for the END of the runway and ensure the `sight picture` is parallel with both front and rear aligned in the FOV.

 

Hello

Both you Larry have mentioned this.

I have in the past tried that ,but don't remember any significant improvements in my landings .I will try again and see what occurs.

Larry also mentions trying light aircraft, but I have in the past flown the lights,historic (dc3 etc)and others (actually some superb models available) at Fseconomy.

The problem there was not the aircraft,but the very complex nature of the site itself (to me anyway).:)

One possible clue to my poor landings ? Iam nearly always to high on approach. No matter how carefully I make it (using Werner schots guides for various simulator aircraft and there performance) I am still high. I these cases I often have only one option... Kamikaze!!! A rapid dive towards my designated runway which I quite often manage, but not satisfactory for me and probably of the centre of the runway to boot.

OK I will give you some idea of my fights why I fly them and why I prefer the airliners.

Every evening I will select a flight of approximately 1000 to 1100 miles.

I take off climb to my cruising altitude.

I will then wait until I get to roughly 750 to 800 miles of my destination.

At this point I will mute the sound of the flight(I don't interact with ATC at all so no problem there)

I will then select a documentary of an hour in length that I have previously downloaded from the BBC iPlayer

When that finishes I will unmute the SIM and be approximately 300 miles from my destination and ready for descent into final approach.

I have done this for years and it really suits me (possibly a bit of autistic spectrum who knows) It would just be nice to finish it off with a good on the centreline (or thereabouts )landing.....a very rare occurrence though it does happen sometimes ;and its such a good feeling I make sure I follow through with a proper taxi to the gate and shutdown..

Any other of my mostly poor landings I don't bother and just close the SIM. I won't file any bad landings , crashes, overshoots etc to Airsource my favourite VA (well not strictly VA but a wonderful place for virtual pilots to fly the virtual world).

Anyway that hopefully gives you some idea of how and what I like to fly.

I may even try the lights again at some point ,you never know I just need to find flights of these smaller aircraft of approximately two to two and half hours so I can STILL fly my routine of....takeoff,climb-out,climb to cruise,mute, watch iPlayer program,descend and land

Probably still missing centre etc.

Life is a circle .

 

Cheers Andy

Edited by HoratioWondersocks
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When approaching the Runway on Final, make small Attitude adjustments with stick and rudder to stay on centerline.

Put the centerline of the runway right down an imaginary sight line right through the middle of your chair.

 

Now, perhaps you could help me; how do you climb in an Airliner to Cruise Altitude? I want to do it right, not just point the nose up and poke a hole in the sky...

 

Alan :pilot:

"I created the Little Black Book to keep myself from getting killed..." -- Captain Elrey Borge Jeppesen

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Andy,

 

While "going back to (landing) basics" and being correctly lined up with the runway in any plane, be sure your surface wind is set either at zero knots or is coming from dead-ahead.

 

I may be trying to kick in an already open door here but I'm reacting to your problem of not being able to land on the runway's center line and a side wind could be your basic cause. Take care though because a wind direction is not stored as part of any airport but must be set and saved as part of your saved (practice) flight. Every time you subsequently re-open that saved flight the wind direction at the airport concerned will automatically be set as previously saved together with that flight.

 

Landing (and take offs) with side wind can always be practiced later.

 

Good luck.

 

Hans

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A rapid dive towards my designated runway which I quite often manage, but not satisfactory for me and probably of the centre of the runway to boot.

 

Slowing down will likely give you a steeper descent than diving, though you have to be careful not to overdo it. Diving trades altitude for speed and will tend to make you land further down the runway. I don't know which aircraft you're flying, but (for example only) lets say that your recommended approach speed is 130 kts, and you have stabilized at that 130 kts with flaps and gear extended, and that you realize you're too high. If you slow to 120 kts for a little while you'll find that you'll descend a bit steeper (it may not be immediately apparent), so can return to 130 kts before getting low enough to start the flare. Of course a simple power reduction (perhaps only a little bit) will also give you a steeper approach, and may be preferred, remembering to let the nose drop just a hair to maintain that 130 kts.**

 

but I have in the past flown the lights,historic (dc3 etc)and others

 

A DC-3 is not a light aircraft. A Cessna or Piper single engine aircraft (or a Cub) is a light aircraft, and they are much easier to learn in.

 

Both you Larry have mentioned this.

I have in the past tried that ,but don't remember any significant improvements in my landings .I will try again and see what occurs.

 

When we mention looking at the far end of the runway, that's not for the entire approach, it's only once you start to flare. As you are coming down final, there will be a spot in the windshield that is NOT going up or down on the windshield. That spot is where, if you change nothing and remain stabilized, that your nose would plow into the ground. So you can adjust power and pitch attitude (maintain airspeed) to change the spot such that the place you want to land is the spot that doesn't move up or down. Once you have the knack, make that "aim point" just short of where you want to touch down, since flaring (NOW is the time to look at the far end) will cause you to touch a little beyond that "aim point."

 

=================================

** Many things in aviation are counter intuitive, and this is one of them.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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Like Hans says (and due to you not 'interacting' with ATC) the runway YOU choose might have a stiff side wind. Even the AP won't help you there. And there are 2 other things NEEDED (required?) if there is any 'wind' involved, and those are PITCH TRIM and 'Auto Rudder'= OFF!!!

 

You can use AP for approach and then turn it off when at 100 ft or so, then hand land (using pitch trim and rudder) to 'attain' that CENTERLINE touch down. Doing sidewind landings take practice. Whether with a Cessna or a 747. Practice landings using 'Locked Spot' view. After doing a few dozen (hundred?) of those then the landings using VC (or 2D) will be much improved.

 

On approach, line up center line to YOUR eyes, not the center of windscreen. Sorry, but that is how the sim 'works'. No fix for that. This is often a source of confusion for simmers. And all their landings are to the LEFT of centerline (of course).

Chuck B

Napamule

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I just want to climb and land in such a way that I don't get my imaginary Ticket yanked by the imaginary FAA, or get sued by some imaginary passenger who wrenched their imaginary back because of my imaginary landings!

 

Alan ;)

"I created the Little Black Book to keep myself from getting killed..." -- Captain Elrey Borge Jeppesen

AMD 1.9GB/8GB RAM/AMD VISION 1GB GPU/500 GB HDD/WIN 7 PRO 64/FS9 CFS CFS2

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Like Hans says (and due to you not 'interacting' with ATC) the runway YOU choose might have a stiff side wind. Even the AP won't help you there. And there are 2 other things NEEDED (required?) if there is any 'wind' involved, and those are PITCH TRIM and 'Auto Rudder'= OFF!!!

 

You can use AP for approach and then turn it off when at 100 ft or so, then hand land (using pitch trim and rudder) to 'attain' that CENTERLINE touch down. Doing sidewind landings take practice. Whether with a Cessna or a 747. Practice landings using 'Locked Spot' view. After doing a few dozen (hundred?) of those then the landings using VC (or 2D) will be much improved.

 

On approach, line up center line to YOUR eyes, not the center of windscreen. Sorry, but that is how the sim 'works'. No fix for that. This is often a source of confusion for simmers. And all their landings are to the LEFT of centerline (of course).

Chuck B

Napamule

 

Hello

I always know the direction of the wind at my destination airport as I use FsReal Weather.

I download a snapshot of the world's weather then turn of FSrealweather (no live updates) and to be completely satisfied

I will move my aircraft to my destination airport just to check the runway selected is the appropriate one for wind direction, when iam satisfied that it is ,I then move my aircraft back to my departure airport and having created a flight plan in FSNavigator I then fly the route.

All a bit long winded, but it's all part of my daily flight selection and operation.

 

Cheers to all

PS with this thread going on, and another concerning the cloning of my PC.

My brain is in full ache mode at the moment.

PPS in another twist concerning my of centre landings I actually completed one of my best ones for a long time BUT! it was born out of near calamity as when using an Ifr approach I found myself about to crash as I realised I was not going to make it to the runway. I very quickly turned of the autopilot/autothrottle shoved the throttle levers open for a short burst ,turned onto the runway and executed a really good touchdown.

Such is life part two.

I will be of again very shortly to try yet again.

Cheers to all

Edited by HoratioWondersocks
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Climbs in transport category jets are made according to a speed schedule that differs a bit from one type to another, but would approximate the following for all:

 

Rotate slowly (around 1-2 degrees per second) to around 7 degrees nose up to become airborne after reaching VR, and then continue to pitch up to around 15 degrees nose up (or maybe a bit more if you are light) so as to maintain a speed of around V2 plus 10-15 knots, and climb at this speed to your clean-up altitude, which is part of the particular procedure for each type, and varies from 1000 AGL to 3000 AGL (also varies by country for noise abatement purposes). This portion of the climb is made using pitch attitude to control airspeed; ie, to reduce speed if you are too fast, raise the nose a bit, and do the opposite to increase speed. This is what is known as a constant airspeed climb, and is what the autoflight does when in FLC mode, and much of the time also in VNAV mode.

 

At clean up altitude, lower the nose to between 5 and 10 degrees nose up to increase speed, and as you pass the speeds for retracting the flaps notch by notch, do so. After flaps up, let the speed build up to 250 knots and then raise the nose to resume a constant airspeed climb at 250 until passing 10,000 feet, at which point lower the nose to accelerate to enroute climb speed (in the 290-320 knot range depending upon what the performance manual and/or FMC tells you is best economy). At some point in the low to mid 20 thousands of feet, your Mach number will increase to the climb Mach number, which is typically between Mach .70 and Mach .78, and from then on until you reach cruise altitude you maintain the Mach number with pitch, not the indicated airspeed. A constant Mach climb will result in a slow reduction of IAS, but that is normal as altitude increases.

 

In VNAV, the autoflight will do all of this for you, and it may be instructive to watch it perform, in order to get an idea of exactly what pitch attitudes are involved at each segment of the climb. But in any event, when flying manually, it is whatever pitch attitude it may take to achieve or maintain the desired IAS or Mach number, or to accelerate at the various change points.

 

Although you did not ask about descent, it is the reverse of the above. Thrust levers to idle, and using pitch attitude (lower the nose) maintain the cruise Mach number until you reach the IAS called for in descent, typically between 280 and 350 knots depending upon airplane type and also wind (headwind or tailwind - the FMC will often calculate this best economy descent speed for you). Hold that speed with pitch attitude until you get to just above 10,000 feet, and then more or less level off (raise the nose to near level pitch) so that the airplane slows to 250 knots. Lower the nose again, and descent in a constant airspeed descent at 250 knots until ATC slows you down or you need to slow down to extend flaps and landing gear as you get close (within around 10 miles, maybe a bit more) to the airport.

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Exactly what I needed to start, avallillo​! I haven't flown airliners before, but I want to give it a try, in a somewhat proper fashion. I'm just past remembering to adjust the weight and fuel when I select the airplane so I can get off the ground!

 

Little steps...

 

Alan :)

"I created the Little Black Book to keep myself from getting killed..." -- Captain Elrey Borge Jeppesen

AMD 1.9GB/8GB RAM/AMD VISION 1GB GPU/500 GB HDD/WIN 7 PRO 64/FS9 CFS CFS2

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... as I get closer to touch down the ground approx. fifty feet to landing I invariably find myself slowly veering off course, and have to try and inelegantly pull on the stick to at least get some sort of landing where no one would have died.

 

Hi Andy.

 

Do you have a deadzone in your joystick / yoke that you could remove? If there's no deadzone, you could still improve the response curve with FSUIPC.

 

Have you tried different loads for the same aircraft? I play mostly with Captain Sim's C-130 and there's an astonishing difference between the handling of a fully laden and an empty plane. I also found that practising in a variety of aircraft helped. I'd forgotten how twitchy the stock C172 can be after growing used to wallowing in a fully laden C-130.

 

When I was getting familiar with the plane, I had a flight set up to start at a six mile final and, as I improved, I moved it to airfields with ever smaller runways (width and length) and gradually increased the aircraft weight. Sometimes now I can actually hit the centreline between the piano keys...

 

That was the result of thinking about Flight Unlimited's Diamond Point (6 inch wide runway) while reading Bob Mason's account of learning to land a Huey in smaller and smaller clearings.

 

It's also interesting that you imply that aiming short improved your landing (throttle notwithstanding) so perhaps you're focussing on the wrong spot on the runway. It certainly helped me to avoid rolling off the far end of smaller strips...

 

D

Edited by defaid
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I will throw my $.02 in here. I am NOT a pilot, but am a many year simpilot flying airliners and commuter jets. I too have struggled with landing. Here are some things that have helped me immensely, as I love the challenge and critically review almost all my landings after the fact:

 

1. Good hardware helps, yoke and throttle. I have adjusted using FSUIPC a certain "slope" characteristic to get good resolution around approach thrust.

 

2. This may seem obvious, but it is super important to be well stabilized throughout the entire approach. On jets, I find it particularly important to keep approach speed on target.

 

3. Manually fly approaches as long as it takes until you get comfortable with it. In time you will improve if 1 and 2 above are settled.

 

4. I recommend flying ILS approaches while you complete "3" above. This gets your eyes used to what an approach should look like to you when you have the needles centered. It is almost good that you will have some imperfect landings so you can see the contrast to how things look when it goes right for you.

 

5. At first until you get consistently happy, stick with the same runway and approach pattern. Then vary to other runway/destinations. Have fun, I don't think you will ever get bored. It will always be challenging. And of course, there is always crosswind and poor visibility to spice things up, but this can all be down the road.

 

I know it has been suggested to start back with a slower prop plane. I personally never took this route. But then again, it took me many years to master a good landing. What troubled me the most was keeping decent rate below 300 fps on touch down.

 

Best of luck. I know there are many here who can help. And lots of information on the web which can give tips on a stabilized approach. Practice will be everything, which luckily we can get through our sims. Remember, a stabilized approach is the key to a good landing, particularly at jet speeds.

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Hi,

 

I fly mostly airliners and the B1900 or DHC-7.

I always rely on the PAPI lights for the correct descent after turning off the AP.

But I also make sure they're placed correctly and have the correct angle, according to the airport charts.

I don't have rudder pedals, I use the twist axis on my stick. And throttle is controlled with keypad keys.

I've come across most, if not all, the advice in this thread, going back to books about subLogic FS. And it helped me a lot over time.

I don't get the center line each time, but I concentrate more on touching down within the 1st 1/3rd of the RWY lenght and a landing VS of about -250fps (as recommended by my VA).

 

Regards,

DDP.

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When approaching the Runway on Final, make small Attitude adjustments with stick and rudder to stay on centerline.

Put the centerline of the runway right down an imaginary sight line right through the middle of your chair.

 

Now, perhaps you could help me; how do you climb in an Airliner to Cruise Altitude? I want to do it right, not just point the nose up and poke a hole in the sky...

 

Alan :pilot:

 

This is what I meant about putting the Centerline down the middle of the chair:

 

Like Chuck said, put your eyes on the Centerline. I try to do it, but I miss a lot of of the time, too.

 

By the by... the guy in the Video has done a lot of these through the years, and they help me a lot as I'm trying to 'relearn' all of this stuff. I was pretty good way back when... now I'm just a NUB on the bottom of the totem pole, starting from scratch! :p

 

Alan :pilot:

"I created the Little Black Book to keep myself from getting killed..." -- Captain Elrey Borge Jeppesen

AMD 1.9GB/8GB RAM/AMD VISION 1GB GPU/500 GB HDD/WIN 7 PRO 64/FS9 CFS CFS2

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