Marketing screw up?

ASOBO has been under a lot of heat lately but it occurred to me that almost all of this could have been avoided if some one had reigned in the marketing department and insisted on a little honesty.

The easiest thing to do would have been to wait a year and release on both platforms at the same time. This way PC users would not have a frame of reference to claim/see degraded visuals that came with SU5/xbox.

Don't post preview vids made from a in house build that is obviously superior to what the end user will/would get.

Openly state that the sim is a ten year project and at the moment is best suited for VFR GA flight but will be developed into a fully functioning sim for IFR and complex aircraft.

I can only speak for myself but knowing this would not have prevented me from buying the sim. I think most would feel the same and be happily looking to the future. Instead we have....well you know what we have.

ASOBO has been under a lot of heat lately but it occurred to me that almost all of this could have been avoided if some one had reigned in the marketing department and insisted on a little honesty.

Of course this assumes that the “marketing department” deliberately lied for some unstated reason…and it’s all a big conspiracy.

It’s a commercial game. Making a profit is the name of the game (as it should be). There are many factors that come into play, and success of Xbox is one of them.

This version of the sim is very ambitious, and frankly, 2 years ago none of us thought it would ever happen (at least I didn’t). Most were happy with P3D and FSX and the constant tinkering.

So like anything else, if people think the new version isn’t adhering to some quality standard or some imagined flight sim ethos, then don’t use it. Stick with P3D or FSX and be happy. 🙂

ASOBO has been under a lot of heat lately but it occurred to me that almost all of this could have been avoided if some one had reigned in the marketing department and insisted on a little honesty.

 

The easiest thing to do would have been to wait a year and release on both platforms at the same time. This way PC users would not have a frame of reference to claim/see degraded visuals that came with SU5/xbox.

 

Don't post preview vids made from a in house build that is obviously superior to what the end user will/would get.

 

Openly state that the sim is a ten year project and at the moment is best suited for VFR GA flight but will be developed into a fully functioning sim for IFR and complex aircraft.

 

I can only speak for myself but knowing this would not have prevented me from buying the sim. I think most would feel the same and be happily looking to the future. Instead we have....well you know what we have.

Some of us also remember god rays, cloud shadows, ocean waves, and we got only 2 updates.

 

The easiest thing to do would have been to wait a year and release on both platforms at the same time...

 

Openly state that the sim is a ten year project and at the moment is best suited for VFR GA flight but will be developed into a fully functioning sim for IFR and complex aircraft.

 

I can only speak for myself but knowing this would not have prevented me from buying the sim. I think most would feel the same and be happily looking to the future.

I agree with your sentiment and frustration completely. However, you could argue that the marketing depertment did a stellar job. After all, the job of a marketing department is to get as many people as possible to buy the product. Conversely, the way you describe what should have been done would have led to much delayed sales or even preveneted sales altogether - which is the opposite of what marketing should do.

I also don't think (but I've no evidence for this), that Asobo had much say in when the sim would have been released. Most likely, Microsoft had a sword over their head and they had to release the sim according to a tight schedule. So continually delaying until it's polished was unlikely to be an option.

Nevertheless, don't take my response as arguing with you. They should have waited. I read somewhere that the alpha testers were quite dismayed in 2020 to learn how brief the beta test was going to be, since it wasn't close be being ready (that's obvious now).

I also don't think (but I've no evidence for this), that Asobo had much say in when the sim would have been released. Most likely, Microsoft had a sword over their head and they had to release the sim according to a tight schedule. So continually delaying until it's polished was unlikely to be an option.

I would submit that’s not how software development is done. The “marketing department” doesn’t set the release dates or tell the developers when to release. Some of you invent these scenarios that just plain don’t exist.

They review the features and the architecture and determine when they can release. Then the “marketing department” markets that release. Not the other way around.

The trade offs come in as they get closer to the milestones they’ve set. They cut or add features based on cost, time, and their relationship to the budget and release milestones. So if Aug 2020 was agreed to, and they’re not ready by a specific milestone, then they either cut features or slip the date…or put more people on the project.

The old developer’s triangle…you can have it Fast, Correct, or Cheap. You pick two.

If you want to see how Microsoft does (and most developers do) software development, look into the Agile software development model and the Microsoft Solutions Framework.

Not sure exactly how Asobo works, but I would assume they would use some form or variation.

Last comment from me on this…if Asobo were simply being pressured and controlled by the totalitarian “marketing department” then why even bother with a beta?

Who cares if you meet the quality bar? You have to get that software out or else the “marketing department” will be mad!!

Do we know if they actually slipped release last summer? We don’t. They may have had an initial release for June (for example) and ended up releasing in Aug. Or the opposite could have happened, they may have hit the quality bar early and been ready in Aug, with an original target of the “holiday season” around October or November.

I would submit that’s not how software development is done. The “marketing department” doesn’t set the release dates or tell the developers when to release. Some of you invent these scenarios that just plain don’t exist.

 

They review the features and the architecture and determine when they can release. Then the “marketing department” markets that release. Not the other way around.

 

The trade offs come in as they get closer to the milestones they’ve set. They cut or add features based on cost, time, and their relationship to the budget and release milestones. So if Aug 2020 was agreed to, and they’re not ready by a specific milestone, then they either cut features or slip the date…or put more people on the project.

 

The old developer’s triangle…you can have it Fast, Correct, or Cheap. You pick two.

Whoa, hold on. I actually completely agree with you, but I think you misunderstood my post. Only the first paragraph in my post dealt with marketing (which is subject of this thread). In the paragraph you quoted, I was commenting on MS/Asobo management decisions, not marketing (I can see how this wasn't clear, though).

In any event, what I meant to say, was that I suspect MS had the ultimate say in when the sim was released, since I find it hard to believe that the developer would willingly release software that was quite buggy and lacked many of features which FSX had. But, like I stated, it's just my opinion. To be clear, I don't mean to say this was due to pressure from marketing, but the management of MS and Asobo.

Last comment from me on this…if Asobo were simply being pressured and controlled by the totalitarian “marketing department” then why even bother with a beta?

 

Who cares if you meet the quality bar? You have to get that software out or else the “marketing department” will be mad!!

 

Do we know if they actually slipped release last summer? We don’t. They may have had an initial release for June (for example) and ended up releasing in Aug. Or the opposite could have happened, they may have hit the quality bar early and been ready in Aug, with an original target of the “holiday season” around October or November.

This needs to be at Flightsimulator.com, where Asoo i goes. Not here. You wasted your time falling on the many deaf ears of fans of this sim in these forums, and this type of complaint post is best suited over there where. THEY will read it. Post it here all you want but the developer Asobo doesn’t come here and won’t see it.

This is like sending a fan mail to a hot chick actress, and instead sending it to the address of an 86 year old dude somewhere because you got the wrong address.

I totally disagree here! I am very happy the product was released last August. I have had very very little to complain about. I have had 1 CTD from the map back early on, a few missing airports that I wanted to use, and a few elevation errors, all of these more annoyances more than real problems. I have immensely enjoyed the use of the product now for 11 months.

The vast majority of issues folks complain about are created by their own choices, not intrinsic to the program itself. People try to use complicated setups with multiple screens and a myriad of control devices. They install addons from unknown and untested sources, and even the better ones don't really know how the program is evolving. They try to run the program on an old laptop or using a CPU from 2008. I am not faulting folks for trying these things, but don't blame the program when your effort fails! Even if release had postponed 6 months, the issues folks have with unusual or outdated systems would still show up no matter how long you wait to release! I have had months of extra enjoyment!!

This needs to be at Flightsimulator.com, where Asoo i goes. Not here. You wasted your time falling on the many deaf ears of fans of this sim in these forums, and this type of complaint post is best suited over there where. THEY will read it. Post it here all you want but the developer Asobo doesn’t come here and won’t see it.

 

This is like sending a fan mail to a hot chick actress, and instead sending it to the address of an 86 year old dude somewhere because you got the wrong address.

Maybe I misunderstood the OP’s comment. My responses weren’t meant for Asobo nor was I the one trying to make a point to them.

I think you misunderstood my responses.

The state of MSFS is of no surprise. Anyone doubts me check my posts from the moment they first announced it and released that short promo video. I've always been accurate.

It's quite simple. You can sell anything to the older age group. They will buy it. They see what they do somehow different to what the younger gamer does.

This was the case with PC's and games in the 1980's and 1990's. You paid a premium as a PC gamer because developers knew a PC gamer was older and considered themselves "above" a console gamer. As such, they accepted and would be prepared to pay a premium for the software they use.

Today, it is still the case with certain games. Flight Sims are certainly one of those games. You can get away with poorer quality products, higher prices and the consumer base will still accept it.

I totally disagree here! I am very happy the product was released last August. I have had very very little to complain about. I have had 1 CTD from the map back early on, a few missing airports that I wanted to use, and a few elevation errors, all of these more annoyances more than real problems. I have immensely enjoyed the use of the product now for 11 months.

The vast majority of issues folks complain about are created by their own choices, not intrinsic to the program itself. People try to use complicated setups with multiple screens and a myriad of control devices. They install addons from unknown and untested sources, and even the better ones don't really know how the program is evolving. They try to run the program on an old laptop or using a CPU from 2008. I am not faulting folks for trying these things, but don't blame the program when your effort fails! Even if release had postponed 6 months, the issues folks have with unusual or outdated systems would still show up no matter how long you wait to release! I have had months of extra enjoyment!!

I don't fully agree with your point here. This game was designed to be modular, this functionality is core to the sim customer base and Microsoft are profiting out of it with the marketplace too. Without the ability of adding freeware and payware bolt ons, I suspect the game would be short lived. As such, the longevity of the game needs to be a relationship with addon creators and the users themselves.

From reading various threads, I've come to learn that different people used flight simming for different purposes. Mine is predominantly VFR flying, but for those who use it for the more technical elements of IFR flying, their needs / gripes will be different to mine. People bought this game expecting it to be better than previous sims. Visually it certainly is, but stability wise and technical functionality appears to be lacking. Companies who have invested their own time in developing addons are having to go back and rework them after game updates, something they never had to do previously so this may impact profitability and commitment. that in turn may damage user satisfaction with the game and thus longevity.

Maybe I misunderstood the OP’s comment. My responses weren’t meant for Asobo nor was I the one trying to make a point to them.

 

I think you misunderstood my responses.

I apologize. I thought you were the Origibal Poster. Tagged wrong name. Sorry!

I don't think anyone was misled as to modularity. It has been known from the beginning that the program would evolve, and this is confirmed by the SDK still not released, which other programs published just to promote modularity. My speculation is that a functional SDK can't be published until the program migrates to DirectX 12. At some point when a SDK exists, then modularity will soar. You contend that addon creators never had to modify products before, but this isn't true, look at products for P3D V3 vs P3D V5. The same with various versions of X-Plane. Most revolutionary change involves some performance limitations initially. I bought the first Sony CD player back in the 1980s. Only a handful of CDs existed. The sound quality in many ways was inferior at that point to record albums available, but they did get rid of warps, scratches, and degradation from stylus damage. 6 years later, CDs and players were much better. Now most of my music is streamed. The quality may not be quite as good as the best CDs, But I now have access to 1000s of artists! I wager that in another 6 years, streaming audio will be much higher quality than current CDs.

As to stability, I have not had a problem yet. It is better than the migration of SuperCalc from V4 to V5 back in the 1980s, which was critical mission software, not amusement. Again, same with a whole herd of Database programs.

ASOBO has been under a lot of heat lately but it occurred to me that almost all of this could have been avoided if some one had reigned in the marketing department and insisted on a little honesty.

 

The easiest thing to do would have been to wait a year and release on both platforms at the same time. This way PC users would not have a frame of reference to claim/see degraded visuals that came with SU5/xbox.

 

Don't post preview vids made from a in house build that is obviously superior to what the end user will/would get.

 

Openly state that the sim is a ten year project and at the moment is best suited for VFR GA flight but will be developed into a fully functioning sim for IFR and complex aircraft.

 

I can only speak for myself but knowing this would not have prevented me from buying the sim. I think most would feel the same and be happily looking to the future. Instead we have....well you know what we have.

This needs to be at Flightsimulator.com, where Asobo i goes. Not here. You wasted your time falling on the many deaf ears of fans of this sim in these forums, and this type of complaint post is best suited over there where. THEY will read it. Post it here all you want but the developer Asobo doesn’t come here and won’t see it.

This is like sending a fan mail to a hot chick actress, and instead sending it to the address of an 86 year old dude somewhere because you got the wrong address.

I don't think anyone was misled as to modularity. It has been known from the beginning that the program would evolve, and this is confirmed by the SDK still not released, which other programs published just to promote modularity. My speculation is that a functional SDK can't be published until the program migrates to DirectX 12. At some point when a SDK exists, then modularity will soar. You contend that addon creators never had to modify products before, but this isn't true, look at products for P3D V3 vs P3D V5. The same with various versions of X-Plane. Most revolutionary change involves some performance limitations initially. I bought the first Sony CD player back in the 1980s. Only a handful of CDs existed. The sound quality in many ways was inferior at that point to record albums available, but they did get rid of warps, scratches, and degradation from stylus damage. 6 years later, CDs and players were much better. Now most of my music is streamed. The quality may not be quite as good as the best CDs, But I now have access to 1000s of artists! I wager that in another 6 years, streaming audio will be much higher quality than current CDs.

As to stability, I have not had a problem yet. It is better than the migration of SuperCalc from V4 to V5 back in the 1980s, which was critical mission software, not amusement. Again, same with a whole herd of Database programs.

You are absolutely right -- it was made very clear, well before the rollout of MSFS, that this was to be a 10-year project with continuous updates and corrections. The fact that many simmers were apparently unaware of it doesn't change this. As far as I am concerned, the current state of MSFS, while certainly not perfect, is pretty amazing when one looks at what has been accomplished in just a year. Watching it grow and evolve over time is great to see, especially as there is nothing else remotely like it on the horizon.

I totally disagree here! I am very happy the product was released last August. I have had very very little to complain about. I have had 1 CTD from the map back early on, a few missing airports that I wanted to use, and a few elevation errors, all of these more annoyances more than real problems. I have immensely enjoyed the use of the product now for 11 months.

The vast majority of issues folks complain about are created by their own choices, not intrinsic to the program itself. People try to use complicated setups with multiple screens and a myriad of control devices. They install addons from unknown and untested sources, and even the better ones don't really know how the program is evolving. They try to run the program on an old laptop or using a CPU from 2008. I am not faulting folks for trying these things, but don't blame the program when your effort fails! Even if release had postponed 6 months, the issues folks have with unusual or outdated systems would still show up no matter how long you wait to release! I have had months of extra enjoyment!!

I'm with Plainsman here. My lappy is almost 3yrs old with an nvidia 1060 almost maxxed on space running graphics on high end not ultra and loving every minute of it. Never had major issues other than what needed patching from Asobo. Every time i fly i am amazed and enthralled. Yeah if I cam around too fast sometimes it crashes but since humans are supposed to be the superior race i evolved and dont cam fast anymore and have no issues. I keep windows updated, pay my cable bill on time and have a blast. Was even using OnAir for a while now I just go and find stuff to look at..With no scientific research I too am of the belief most issues with this sim are user created and brought on by your ownself..IMHO

I thought Microsoft/Asobo did say that it was still in development when they launched it last year. That is exactly why I did not pay the full price upfront, but rather accessed it through my XBOX Game Pass for PC subscription (which I use for a multitude of other games as well), so that I could TRY IT OUT first.

It does seem to be a new disease of all software companies, to release a beta product and then fix and refine it over the next two years. That is why I generally wait with AAA titles and then buy the GOTY version (Game of the Year) version two years later, with all the updates, fixes and DLC, at a large discount. I will do exactly the same with MSFS and will only buy-to-own the full version in another year's time and only after they added the FLYBY VIEW, which is still sorely lacking after a year.

Having said that, I'm glad that Microsoft/Asobo released it when they did, as there was so much hype and innovation involved and the flight-sim world was overly curious and well-overdue for a new product. At least we could see for ourselves what this new technology was all about and I think it impressed most of us. It was a fully-functional product from day one for me, but I also find myself reverting to old FSX and P3D more and more often again, due to the deficiencies in MSFS (mainly the lack of a flyby view, extremely long loading time and inability to switch aircraft/liveries in mid-flight.)

This needs to be at Flightsimulator.com, where Asobo i goes. Not here. You wasted your time falling on the many deaf ears of fans of this sim in these forums, and this type of complaint post is best suited over there where. THEY will read it. Post it here all you want but the developer Asobo doesn’t come here and won’t see it.

 

This is like sending a fan mail to a hot chick actress, and instead sending it to the address of an 86 year old dude somewhere because you got the wrong address.

As a VFR type and CTD free I am able to use the sim fine. Posting on the main forum would be equally useless as it will get lost in the avalanche of other threads from people unhappy at the moment. Was also not aware that this was a fans of FS2020 only forum.

Was only suggesting that the Marketing depart stop creating unrealistic expectations thus aggravating further those that are having problems with the sim and relieving the unnecessary pressure that ASOBO is probably under at this point

I also find myself reverting to old FSX and P3D more and more often again, due to the deficiencies in MSFS (mainly the lack of a flyby view, extremely long loading time and inability to switch aircraft/liveries in mid-flight.)

Flyby view is available using the drone set to a fixed location. Loading times are very dependent on add-ons and can be kept to a minimum (2-3 minutes) by use of an addon manager. And while it's not exactly realistic(!), for those who want to, aircraft can be switched in mid-flight using dev mode.

I totally disagree here! I am very happy the product was released last August. ... Even if release had postponed 6 months, the issues folks have with unusual or outdated systems would still show up no matter how long you wait to release! I have had months of extra enjoyment!!

Am in full agreement with your views, plainsman. We might need a bit of historical retrospective here. Having been a pretty happy simmer since FS98, it's been interesting to see how every new version was accompanied by a chorus of criticism, much of it well-warranted -- maybe especially in the case of FSX, which never worked well without hours' of research and endless tweaking. Meanwhile a kind of silent majority got on with simming, enjoying the simple reality that -- whatever the bugs -- each new version came with a higher level of challenge and realism, more immersive visuals and flight dynamics, which usually meant upgrading one's system.

At the same time, as each new sim appeared on the horizon I personally went thro' more or less the same routine..I'd feel, and say to myself, that I was really happy with my current sim and -- while I'd give the new one a try -- would be happy to stick with it, save myself the extra cost, etc. So for a while I'd keep both versions on my machine -- only after a while realising that I really wasn't interested in or flying the old sim, and delete it from my system.

Exactly the same routine happened with my previous sim and MSFS 2020 -- holding on to the old sim for a while, returning to fly favourite aircraft. Except that while previous new versions were another step forward, this one was a pretty stunning leap -- brilliant graphics, worldwide scenery, impressive flight modelling and great performance, especially since SU5, without any real tweaking. Yes, it's buggy, but hey ... !

So, yes, I'm delighted that -- however it happened, pushed by marketing or whomever -- MS released it last August rather than wait..

And no, I have no shares in MS or any of the others ...