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Little Help With the PROC feature of GPS


pdmike

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I am having some trouble utilizing the PROC function of the GPS in the B737-800. I want to fly a standard approach to the destination airport/runway, but I don't seem to be able to push the right buttons.

 

What happens is, I press PROC, and then SELECT APPROACH. I next then ILS28 because I plan to make an ILS landing on RWY 28. I then must choose either VECTORS or HRV under "Trans." Here, I don't know what to do, so I have been selecting VECTORS. I don't know what HRV stands for or what it does.

 

Next, I either select LOAD or ACTIVATE, depending on how far out I am. As I get closer to the airport, I will ACTIVATE if I have previously put the approach into LOAD. I have no idea how far out one should be before ACTIVATING the approach.

 

OK - with the approach activated, and the airport coming up, I can zoom out on my Flight Plan view, and see a dotted white line (which was not there before) winding around the airport. It will have a hold circle in it and will appear to be the approach that I have selected. The problem is, the aircraft will never coincide with the dotted white line. It will generally fly over the airport and then begin a turn that will ultimately get it lined up with the intended runway, but I don't think that's the way it's supposed to work.

 

What am I doing wrong? I keep the plane in GPS mode during all of the above.

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Which airport for the ILS28 approach?

 

OK - with the approach activated, and the airport coming up, I can zoom out on my Flight Plan view, and see a dotted white line (which was not there before) winding around the airport. It will have a hold circle in it and will appear to be the approach that I have selected. The problem is, the aircraft will never coincide with the dotted white line. It will generally fly over the airport and then begin a turn that will ultimately get it lined up with the intended runway, but I don't think that's the way it's supposed to work.

 

An ILS approach (or any approach) might have different pieces, depending on the airport, the surrounding airspace, the terrain and maybe other factors. You need to provide the airport so we can look at the approach plate, and you need to mention what your heading and (relative) position is when you start this (big effect on the plane's path). You also might describe the turn a bit better than just "begin a turn" -- does the aircraft head away from the airport on the same side of the airport as the approach, go straight for a bit, then turn? Is it more than one turn? Is it anything like the holding pattern, or perhaps it's a 45º turn (right or left), brief straight, then a 180º, then turning on to final?

 

Please supply some additional info to help us help you.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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Which airport for the ILS28 approach?

 

 

 

An ILS approach (or any approach) might have different pieces, depending on the airport, the surrounding airspace, the terrain and maybe other factors. You need to provide the airport so we can look at the approach plate, and you need to mention what your heading and (relative) position is when you start this (big effect on the plane's path). You also might describe the turn a bit better than just "begin a turn" -- does the aircraft head away from the airport on the same side of the airport as the approach, go straight for a bit, then turn? Is it more than one turn? Is it anything like the holding pattern, or perhaps it's a 45º turn (right or left), brief straight, then a 180º, then turning on to final?

 

Please supply some additional info to help us help you.

 

Will do. SB - going to dinner right now, but will get back to you ASAP. And thank you!

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The white dotted line is the path to the holding point. If you decide to do a missed approach, the gps will fly the white dotted line to the holding point and the airplane will circle until you decide to do something else. On the approach you have 2 choices. 1 is to land the airplane manually using the gps to keep you lined up to the runway. On my lazy flights I will use this method. Actually I use the gps to line me up a lot. 2. long before you get to the ILS, having the gps line you up, dial the ILS frequency in nav 1 and at some point in your approach, switch to NAV and activate the ILS for an ILS approach. Basically the PROC is used to line you up to the ILS.
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the gps will fly the white dotted line to the holding point and the airplane will circle until you decide to do something else.

 

The OP said:

 

The problem is, the aircraft will never coincide with the dotted white line. It will generally fly over the airport and then begin a turn that will ultimately get it lined up with the intended runway,

 

which is why we need more information to help him.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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I am having some trouble utilizing the PROC function of the GPS in the B737-800. I want to fly a standard approach to the destination airport/runway, but I don't seem to be able to push the right buttons.

 

This is exactly the same situation I found myself facing when trying to use the Garmin 530. I opted for what I consider the far more intuitive GPS gauge by Gavin Munro available here in the library. Just do a search for "munro" (no quotes) and you will find a host of panels he has developed as well as the GPS gauge. He basically has taken all the functions of the Garmin and reprogrammed them into an easy to read and execute functions. You won't have to guess what button or arrow to click and in what order to bring up the function you are looking for, and then try and remember in what order you selected them in order to return to where you started. Commands are in easy to read labels and Icons.

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Which airport for the ILS28 approach?

 

(1) An ILS approach (or any approach) might have different pieces, depending on the airport, the surrounding airspace, the terrain and maybe other factors.

 

(2) You need to provide the airport so we can look at the approach plate, and you need to mention what your heading and (relative) position is when you start this (big effect on the plane's path).

 

(3) You also might describe the turn a bit better than just "begin a turn" -- does the aircraft head away from the airport on the same side of the airport as the approach, go straight for a bit, then turn? Is it more than one turn? Is it anything like the holding pattern, or perhaps it's a 45º turn (right or left), brief straight, then a 180º, then turning on to final?

 

Please supply some additional info to help us help you.

 

(1) I understand that there may be a number of different approaches to any given airport and that each of these approaches may not have the same number of pieces (or segments).

 

(2) I'll fly the thing again. I am approaching the Reno-Tahoe airport at 18,000 feet, 75 miles out from the airport in a stock, Boeing 737-800. I am flying a heading of 330 with GPS in control of the plane. I am not using ATC. As I begin the descent, I load an approach plan by doing the following: PROC/SELECT APPROACH/ILS16R/VECTORS/ACTIVATE. i notice that now, when I go to the alternate page of my flight plan, the various "pieces" of the approach have appeared: Approach ILS16R; TAKLE;RW16R; 6500; FMG; NICER; There is more, but it is off at the bottom the screen and I don't know how to scroll down to see it. (Question: What is all that other stuff doing in there below RW16R? I never use it. The only "pieces" I use are TAKEL and RWY16R.)

 

So, having activated my approach.I continue my descent. As I do so, I notice that the GPS line of flight (in red) no longer appears on my main, flight plan page. Descent continues. I continue on a heading of 331. (I have leveled off at 12500 ft. because there is a mountain in the way of my descent path and I have to hold the descent at 12500 in order to get over the mountain. After leveling off, I am on a heading of 338.)

 

As soon as we clear the mountain, the descent continues to 6,600 ft., which is 2000 ft. AGL. Note: The NAV/GPS switch is on GPS and the NAV HOLD switch is ON. Descent continues. I am now 6.8 miles out. The RWy16R ILS frequency is on. The airport is ahead, on my left at an estimated angle of 20 degrees. My heading is 331. My approach plan says I am heading for TAKLE and that is 17 miles away. I am now at 9,000 ft., flying right by the airport on a heading of 331. (I know, I know .... I started my descent a little too late but it is what it is.)

 

Once I reach TAKEL, the plane begins a left turn. The next point of the arrival plan is RWY16R. I began the turn at a heading of 336. At the end of the left turn, the plane levels off on a heading of 128, 8 miles out from RWY16R. I switch to NAV and hit APP. The plane immediately begins to turn left - I assume to pick up the localizer. The plane then descends and crashes into the ground - I guess because when I activated NAV and hit APP, it deactivated ALT HOLD and I didn't notice that.

 

If I had not crashed, the plane would have picked up the locaizer and I would have done an ILS landing on RWy16R.

 

(3) See above for a description of the turn.

 

So - that's it. Is this the way an Approach is supposed to work, because it seems to me there is an awful lot of unnecessary flying around the airport before landing.

 

And what about the crash? Are we supposed to immediately re-activate the ALT HOLD, once we switch to NAV and hit APP?

Edited by pdmike
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OK, I am looking at an approach plate for the KRNO 16R ILS, dated SEP 1999. The reason I'm using this one is because it's what I have on hand that still defines the points you are using (circa 2005) in FSX. The current plates are quite different, and there are two approaches for 16R.

 

First thing to note is that TAKLE is the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) for the 16R ILS at KRNO. TAKLE is actually an intersection defined by the junction of the 316º radial from the Mustang (FMG) VOR and the I-RNO localizer. Of course on the GPS it is just a waypoint. The approach plate shows that you should be at 9000 MSL (not 6600) on the north side of TAKLE before turning inbound, then come inbound on the localizer descending to 8500, then cross TAKLE inbound at 8500 or intercept the glide slope at 8500 about 12 DME (nautical miles) from the runway. Before reaching this point you should have been established on the localizer for a while to let the aircraft settle down (hopefully you are down to a reasonable approach speed, not cruise speed before starting your descent, let alone trying the start the approach).

 

I've included the approach plate I'm looking at below, so you can see what I'm talking about, but wife just indicated supper soon, so I'm going to save this post for a while, then come back to add to it later.

 

Meantime, I want to mention something that may seem obvious to you, but needs to be brought to the front of your mind in discussing this. One reason for all the seemingly (to you) excess flying around in the area is that the design of the approach must first consider that the pilot can't see anything except clouds outside, and it must consider safety, both in altitude and in azimuth, that is, plenty of clearance from terrain AND obstacles (radio towers, buildings, etc.) throughout the approach, right down to touchdown. The FAA (and regulators in other countries) have established certain minimum altitudes and distances to clear the various things, and those are adhered to throughout the approach. Another reason is that, especially in faster aircraft, even at their slower speeds for approach, things can happen fast, and a pilot's mistakes must be allowed for (up to a point). And finally, the limitations of the nav equipment (including radio wave reflections from odd objects, odd atmospheric phenomena, etc.), human reaction time and perceptions, and more are considered. AND the aircraft MUST be on a stabilized approach path prior to reaching the IAF.

 

One other note before I stop for the moment: Try hitting the APP mode before crossing TAKLE outbound, so that the GPS software has a chance to put the aircraft where it needs to be. Also, this approach is actually set up to use the NAV radios in ILS mode, and the approach chart I show is designed to navigate by VORs, not by GPS (that is true of the design of the approach in the GPS too).

 

Back later for more.

ILS 16R KRNO 1999 sm.jpg

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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OK, I'm back. I'm flying the approach in a Baron (don't much care for the sim's airliners), and I was well southeast of the airport inbound on a northwesterly heading, with the GPS directing the AP Direct To KRNO. At about 12 NM from KRNO at 9,000 ft I activated the approach. The aircraft immediately made a right turn to head to a point somewhat past TAKLE -- the red line shows I will go well north of TAKLE, then a very sharp left turn to get on the localizer. A turn like that should instead become a procedure turn (the 45º left turn outbound at the top of the chart, with a barbed tip, and headings of 299º outbound and right turn to 119º to then intercept the localizer inbound.

 

The aircraft turned left quite a bit short of where the red line took that obscenely sharp left turn, and made a circle back to get aligned with the localizer (I stayed at 9000 ft through all this) then flew right over the field. Nowhere on the GPS display did it show the procedure turn arrow, BTW, which hurts trying a coupled approach.

 

So I went back well southeast again to give this another try. This time I flew from well southeast direct to KRNO then, almost over the airport activated the approach. This time it went straight out to TAKLE then, at TAKLE, started that left turn again. This is still at 9,000 ft, which needs to be maintained until established inbound on the localizer but outside TAKLE, where you descend to 8500 to pick up the glide slope (can't do that on GPS -- must switch to NAV and use NAV radios to perform the approach.

 

What is all that other stuff doing in there below RW16R? I never use it. The only "pieces" I use are TAKEL and RWY16R.)

 

It's used for other things. Ignore NICER and its associated holding pattern, that's for missed approach.

 

As soon as we clear the mountain, the descent continues to 6,600 ft., which is 2000 ft. AGL.

 

Why so low? Anyway, that's not 2000 AGL, except maybe at one or two spots. It IS 2200 feet above the field, but is way too low for there -- don't descend below 9000 until established on the localizer inbound, then only to 8500 ft, letting the glideslope guide you down once it's engaged (in NAV, of course).

 

I am now at 9,000 ft., flying right by the airport on a heading of 331. (I know, I know .... I started my descent a little too late but it is what it is.)

 

Too late? Again, 9000 until inbound on final outside (north of) TAKLE.

 

Once I reach TAKEL, the plane begins a left turn. The next point of the arrival plan is RWY16R. I began the turn at a heading of 336. At the end of the left turn, the plane levels off on a heading of 128, 8 miles out from RWY16R. I switch to NAV and hit APP. The plane immediately begins to turn left - I assume to pick up the localizer. The plane then descends and crashes into the ground - I guess because when I activated NAV and hit APP, it deactivated ALT HOLD and I didn't notice that.

 

Don't press APR or APP (whichever it is on your craft) until you are on final, as stated above, at 9000 ft well north of TAKLE, inbound and nearly on the localizer. You should still be a few miles from TAKLE when you do this. Then switch to NAV mode and hit APR.

 

Note: In the vertical profile view on the plate (the part with the odd lines under the main plan view) it says "Remain within 10 NM". This is referring to the point (labeled 9000) where you turn around to go inbound, you should not be further than 10 NM N of TAKLE -- this is for terrain clearance.

 

Hope this helps. Gotta go for this evening, but give it a try, perhaps with a bit more understanding now of what's involved, and being aware the the approach depiction (and guidance) for the GPS is usually less than perfect in FSX. There are approach plates for every published instrument approach, and the current version of each is online somewhere, though there have been changes in the 15+ years since the data that FSX uses was compiled.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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Final note here, with a better solution for you. Last night I was tired, and trying to duplicate your flight using VECTORS for the approach. For doing that you need to have ATC involved on an IFR flight plan and let them vector you to the approach. If instead of VECTORS you had selected TAKLE (maybe 10 NM out, or so, inbound to KRNO) it would have taken you through the outbound portion of the approach north from TAKLE and even through the procedure turn and would have established you on the localizer inbound, at which point you'd descend to 8500 and switch to NAV (from GPS) and then press APR on the AP. Assuming you're near 8500 when intercepting the glide slope the AP will start your descent when the GS needles center. You'll want approach flaps before TAKLE inbound and gear down no later than reaching TAKLE (then full flaps, of course).

 

All the above need to be done at approach speed. 175 kts and more through the procedure turn will have the AP overshooting a lot, trying to correct then overshooting some more, so at least get it down to 150 kts -- I don't know what your aircraft needs for approach speed.

 

Hopefully you've learned a few things. I've certainly reminded myself how FS works on the GPS -- it's been years since I tried much IFR stuff in the sim, mostly flying with a friend VFR and sightseeing.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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The plane then descends and crashes into the ground - I guess because when I activated NAV and hit APP, it deactivated ALT HOLD and I didn't notice that.

 

 

I love it !!

 

.............. ATC then says, (in their most official sounding voice) "Contact ground on 123.45."

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Final note here, with a better solution for you. Last night I was tired, and trying to duplicate your flight using VECTORS for the approach. For doing that you need to have ATC involved on an IFR flight plan and let them vector you to the approach. If instead of VECTORS you had selected TAKLE (maybe 10 NM out, or so, inbound to KRNO) it would have taken you through the outbound portion of the approach north from TAKLE and even through the procedure turn and would have established you on the localizer inbound, at which point you'd descend to 8500 and switch to NAV (from GPS) and then press APR on the AP. Assuming you're near 8500 when intercepting the glide slope the AP will start your descent when the GS needles center. You'll want approach flaps before TAKLE inbound and gear down no later than reaching TAKLE (then full flaps, of course).

 

All the above need to be done at approach speed. 175 kts and more through the procedure turn will have the AP overshooting a lot, trying to correct then overshooting some more, so at least get it down to 150 kts -- I don't know what your aircraft needs for approach speed.

 

Hopefully you've learned a few things. I've certainly reminded myself how FS works on the GPS -- it's been years since I tried much IFR stuff in the sim, mostly flying with a friend VFR and sightseeing.

 

Thank you. I will try and digest it all.

 

One specific question about an Approach Plate. It is hard for me to read and understand an Approach Plate. So much information and a million abbreviations. But I know enough that you have to go to the starting point to begin a STAR approach, right? My question is - how do get to the starting point? How do you know when you are there?

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A STAR is a separate procedure, with its own published instructions. A Standard Terminal ARrival generally leads to a point where you can be vectored to, or cleared to, an approach. See the ANAHO Arrival below for an example of a STAR (current one, so not for FSX).

 

Later: It occurs to me that I should have specified that a STAR is NOT an instrument approach, but is a standardized (thus the name) route into the terminal airspace (some of them are quite large, KDEN, KORD, etc.) from which you can be vectored or cleared to any of a number of approaches. The TRANSITIONS on a STAR (specified in the ATC clearance) bring you in from different points before getting to the common part of the STAR.

RENO STAR 00346ANAHO.PDF

Edited by lnuss

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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A STAR is a separate procedure, with its own published instructions. A Standard Terminal ARrival generally leads to a point where you can be vectored to, or cleared to, an approach. See the ANAHO Arrival below for an example of a STAR (current one, so not for FSX).

 

Later: It occurs to me that I should have specified that a STAR is NOT an instrument approach, but is a standardized (thus the name) route into the terminal airspace (some of them are quite large, KDEN, KORD, etc.) from which you can be vectored or cleared to any of a number of approaches. The TRANSITIONS on a STAR (specified in the ATC clearance) bring you in from different points before getting to the common part of the STAR.

 

So how do you get to the starting point of a STAR? In FS, do I have to be using ATC and have them vector me to that point? How do I know when I am there, at the starting point for the STAR?

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That information is in the STAR. In the ANAHO TWO Arrival I put in my last post, there is one of two TRANSITIONS you'd use, the GASSI or the LOVELOCK. The description at the bottom of the page tells you what to do with each of them, either flying to the GASSI intersection or to the LOVELOCK VOR. However those will probably be different for FSX, since the page I gave you is new and the FSX approaches are 15+ years old, therefore different.

 

You'd need to have the STAR of that vintage. By now you've discovered that there's a LOT more to instrument flying (even more complex in jets) than just hooking up the GPS to the autopilot and selecting a procedure. If you go to faa.gov and go to the Instrument Flying Handbook, you can learn a LOT, and when you think that just to get a real world instrument rating it takes a minimum of 40 hours of in flight instruction plus a rather considerable amount of ground school, you can see that you'll need to spend a fair chunk of time and effort learning this stuff.

 

I can't do more than scratch the surface here, and I've already spent a lot of hours trying to put a little together for you, so get to faa.gov and dig in. We can still help here with individual questions, but you're trying to learn some advanced stuff before you have the basics, and you can't run before you walk, before you crawl.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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That information is in the STAR. In the ANAHO TWO Arrival I put in my last post, there is one of two TRANSITIONS you'd use, the GASSI or the LOVELOCK. The description at the bottom of the page tells you what to do with each of them, either flying to the GASSI intersection or to the LOVELOCK VOR. However those will probably be different for FSX, since the page I gave you is new and the FSX approaches are 15+ years old, therefore different.

 

You'd need to have the STAR of that vintage. By now you've discovered that there's a LOT more to instrument flying (even more complex in jets) than just hooking up the GPS to the autopilot and selecting a procedure. If you go to faa.gov and go to the Instrument Flying Handbook, you can learn a LOT, and when you think that just to get a real world instrument rating it takes a minimum of 40 hours of in flight instruction plus a rather considerable amount of ground school, you can see that you'll need to spend a fair chunk of time and effort learning this stuff.

 

I can't do more than scratch the surface here, and I've already spent a lot of hours trying to put a little together for you, so get to faa.gov and dig in. We can still help here with individual questions, but you're trying to learn some advanced stuff before you have the basics, and you can't run before you walk, before you crawl.

 

Fully understand and much appreciate the "beyond the call" instruction you have given me here. Thanks.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Final note here, with a better solution for you. Last night I was tired, and trying to duplicate your flight using VECTORS for the approach. For doing that you need to have ATC involved on an IFR flight plan and let them vector you to the approach..

 

Hi Innus, I have a question about that, please. A question I have asked myself several times.

If I am flying ILS under ATC control, they are going to give me (direct me) through vectors that wind me up on a good path to intercept the localizer and glide slope. That being said, what would be the point of messing around with the GPS procedures at all ? In fact, doing so will inevitably put me in conflict ATC's directions.

Thus, in my way of thinking, the GPS procedures and vectors are really only useful if flying VFR.

 

Note* I quit trying to use them a long time ago since the GPS vectors are not very nice intercepts. Typically, if memory serves me, they were mostly 90 degree turns at the IAF. Easy for some maybe, not for me.

 

So what is the point of loading or activating anything if IFR/ATC?

I can see having the missed approach already loaded in case of Go Around... but not approach procs or vectors.

 

Is there a real world use for it that does not become apparent in the Sim?

TIA, enjoy sightseeing !!

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The white dotted line is the path to the holding point. If you decide to do a missed approach, the gps will fly the white dotted line to the holding point and the airplane will circle until you decide to do something else. .

 

Hi, question please, and I'm a novice so please forgive,

Until I decide to do something else?

 

I wind up in those holding patterns because of some spacing problem -

Resulting in ATC telling me to GO AROUND.

 

What happens in the real world? In my way of thinking, if they told me to go up there, they should call and say "OK, you can come out now," or something. Nope!.

In deciding to do something else, what are the choices? Fly around it once? twice? 25 times? Then do what?

 

*by the way, i say ATC made me do it - but I understand I could have implicitly caused it by going too fast or slow. Different issue.

 

Thanks in advance.

--john

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If you are flying IFR (which you are if you're shooting an ILS approach, in the real world) then you want a means of navigation. ATC won't navigate for you -- those folks are often WAY too busy for that and it's not their job -- they are there primarily for traffic separation, that is, to keep people from running into each other, thus the required ATC clearances for IFR. In any case, as pilot in command, I truly want to know where I am and how to get where I want to go. Early IFR used radio ranges and NDBs, then VOR/DME came along, and now it's GPS.

 

The vectors option on the GPS is for use if ATC is providing vectors to you, but often their clearance will be one of the other options, often clearing you with a STAR (where they are provided) and an associated transition. And there are many places where you'll fly an approach (probably not an ILS) with strictly your own navigation (via an ATC clearance) to get to the beginning of the approach.

 

That being said, what would be the point of messing around with the GPS procedures at all ? In fact, doing so will inevitably put me in conflict ATC's directions.

Note what I said above: You select vectors on the GPS only when ATC does, in fact, give you vectors -- they often don't in the real world.

 

You should also be aware that, in the real world, with it's reality of potential harm if things aren't done right, that the IFR rules provide for what to do in case of lost communications, allowing you to complete your flight (in that case only) without talking to ATC, just based on your original flight plan AND the original ATC clearance at the start of your flight.

 

I wind up in those holding patterns because of some spacing problem -

Resulting in ATC telling me to GO AROUND.

 

What happens in the real world? In my way of thinking, if they told me to go up there, they should call and say "OK, you can come out now," or something. Nope!.

In deciding to do something else, what are the choices? Fly around it once? twice? 25 times? Then do what?

 

Huh? Keep in mind the the "ATC" in FS is very crude and often doesn't do a great job, AND it is dealing with "pilots" most of whom are not trained in IFR (often not even VFR) flying, and they have to deal with the "AI" aircraft in the sim which are rather rigidly implemented, not flexible at all.

 

So although the sim attempts to duplicate real flying, it's a crude imitation, often useful, fun for many, but woefully lacking in many respects.

 

There's a reason why both pilots and controllers must take extensive training before doing this stuff for real.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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