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Some real-life aviation experiences and milestones today


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A really cool aspect of KSEZ-Sedona, Arizona, is that one of the most gorgeous hiking trails anywhere consists of a complete circumference around the airport. It's perched up on top of a plateau so you can imagine what the views are like. What this means to me: I can burn some calories, and nerd out by walking in to the real airport for the first time in my life. Since I've been flying from the MSFS airport frequently, it was pretty surreal walking around it IRL. MSFS featured KSEZ as one of its enhanced airports, so they hand-crafted it to look real. I definitely recognized it.

 

I didn't want to creep out people inside by taking random photos of the interior, so instead I was content with taking a picture of a picture. This was a panoramic shot hanging up on a wall:

 

KSEZ.jpg

 

Related point: there's a gentleman in England who will hand-craft a livery for you for 10 bucks (USD). Below is his creation for me, which I am totally in love with (pictured near KSEZ as well). Link to contact him below the picture.

 

AGO.jpg

 

His name is Jon and you can reach him here: https://flightsim.to/profile/ThatLiveryGuy

 

Finally, today is another big IRL milestone for me because I can officially call myself a student pilot. I signed up for ground school, through an online program. I intend to finish the online course and pass the written test, before moving on to in-person flight school. Funny enough, in the first 4 hours of coursework I have gone through so far, it's all material that I am already very familiar with because of MSFS and previous sims. I know that will change very soon but MSFS has clearly given me a leg up in understanding some basic concepts.

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A really cool aspect of KSEZ-Sedona, Arizona, is that one of the most gorgeous hiking trails anywhere consists of a complete circumference around the airport. It's perched up on top of a plateau so you can imagine what the views are like. What this means to me: I can burn some calories, and nerd out by walking in to the real airport for the first time in my life. Since I've been flying from the MSFS airport frequently, it was pretty surreal walking around it IRL. MSFS featured KSEZ as one of its enhanced airports, so they hand-crafted it to look real. I definitely recognized it.

 

I didn't want to creep out people inside by taking random photos of the interior, so instead I was content with taking a picture of a picture. This was a panoramic shot hanging up on a wall:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]225504[/ATTACH]

 

Related point: there's a gentleman in England who will hand-craft a livery for you for 10 bucks (USD). Below is his creation for me, which I am totally in love with (pictured near KSEZ as well). Link to contact him below the picture.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]225505[/ATTACH]

 

His name is Jon and you can reach him here: https://flightsim.to/profile/ThatLiveryGuy

 

Finally, today is another big IRL milestone for me because I can officially call myself a student pilot. I signed up for ground school, through an online program. I intend to finish the online course and pass the written test, before moving on to in-person flight school. Funny enough, in the first 4 hours of coursework I have gone through so far, it's all material that I am already very familiar with because of MSFS and previous sims. I know that will change very soon but MSFS has clearly given me a leg up in understanding some basic concepts.

 

Why don't you tell us about your whole life! Just kidding.

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Great, Neil. Glad to hear you're started on your training. I'd offer you a thought or two though. I wouldn't wait to pass the written before starting the in flight portion. Properly done (and most flight schools can) ground school and in flight training can be synergistic, that is, each reinforcing the other, each helping you to understand the other portion. Especially, there are parts of the ground school that are easier to understand if you've actually flown a bit (beyond the sim, that is).

 

Getting a good start on the ground portion is a good idea, though. Luck...

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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Great, Neil. Glad to hear you're started on your training. I'd offer you a thought or two though. I wouldn't wait to pass the written before starting the in flight portion. Properly done (and most flight schools can) ground school and in flight training can be synergistic, that is, each reinforcing the other, each helping you to understand the other portion. Especially, there are parts of the ground school that are easier to understand if you've actually flown a bit (beyond the sim, that is).

 

Getting a good start on the ground portion is a good idea, though. Luck...

 

I will have to keep that in mind as I proceed, and appreciate the advice. I made this decision after listening to several CFIs talk about it, in podcasts and other sources. They seemed to heavily favor (and in fact, are impressed by) students who came in to their programs already knowledgeable. That said, I am not doing this in a rush and if a good CFI (I have not found one yet) tells me that some more ground school on any particular topic would be helpful, I'll go for it.

 

There's a second reason this plan works me in particular: I don't know if my wife is fully on board with this whole flying business at all. She's not the type to just tell me no, she doesn't want me to do it. (Instead, it's worse, it will be the day I am supposed to go flying for the first time and THEN it will all come out, lol). So if I ease into this situation she's more likely to feel better about it by the time I actually fly my first plane.

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Why don't you tell us about your whole life! Just kidding.

 

It all started on a cold January day in Ontario, Canada. That was the day I was born...

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As a HAPPILY divorced geezer I can suggest that "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody gonna be happy." lol

 

As a life-long aviation enthusiast and EAA member I offer the following.

 

The expense to become a real-life pilot, whether Light Sport or full Private is most considerable - $5000 to $10,000, as is the monthly budget tithing (figure $1500 a month to be on the safe side) to fly enough to stay proficient, it's best IMHO to have all the financial partners on-board.

 

Even more so should you take the huge leap and become an airplane owner. It is not for the faint of wallet heart, and is why ALL my actual flight experience for all these decades has been via sims. - lol

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As a HAPPILY divorced geezer I can suggest that "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody gonna be happy." lol

 

As a life-long aviation enthusiast and EAA member I offer the following.

 

The expense to become a real-life pilot, whether Light Sport or full Private is most considerable - $5000 to $10,000, as is the monthly budget tithing (figure $1500 a month to be on the safe side) to fly enough to stay proficient, it's best IMHO to have all the financial partners on-board.

 

Even more so should you take the huge leap and become an airplane owner. It is not for the faint of wallet heart, and is why ALL my actual flight experience for all these decades has been via sims. - lol

 

Well said.

 

The worst thing that will happen at this point is that I will change my mind, possibly affected by the wife's views if not finances, and I will become a better-educated simmer.

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Good onya mate! The more you learn about "real" aviation, the more fun sims like this one become. Win-Win.

 

I should also add that learning to fly and then continuing to fly ISN'T 'too expensive', I just can't afford it.

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Good onya mate! The more you learn about "real" aviation, the more fun sims like this one become. Win-Win.

 

I should also add that learning to fly and then continuing to fly ISN'T 'too expensive', I just can't afford it.

 

Yeah, understood. Wife and I are both full-time professionals so I can maybe afford this hobby to some limited extent, but what exactly that extent is remains to be seen. Neither of us are exactly trust fund babies who will be purchasing a brand new Beechcraft Bonanza for me to play with as my toy. I'm looking more at used Cessna 172s on some future day, or these "flying club" situations that some hobbyists seem to participate in.

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nice! welcome to the club! I started with flight sims and got my PPL at 18. 19 now working on my instrument rating! if I can take one thing away from my PPL training, this is to learn to fly without a GPS. using a non electronic E6B and not having a GPS or foreflight but rather a paper flightplan is one of the best things I was told to do. don't get me wrong, I love using a GPS, and I've used a good few, (Gtn400, Gtn430, Gtn530, Gtn650, Gtn750, and soon G1000nxi) the ability to use paper and find your way is a far more valuable skill becoming a child of the magenta. good luck!!
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nice! welcome to the club! I started with flight sims and got my PPL at 18. 19 now working on my instrument rating! if I can take one thing away from my PPL training, this is to learn to fly without a GPS. using a non electronic E6B and not having a GPS or foreflight but rather a paper flightplan is one of the best things I was told to do. don't get me wrong, I love using a GPS, and I've used a good few, (Gtn400, Gtn430, Gtn530, Gtn650, Gtn750, and soon G1000nxi) the ability to use paper and find your way is a far more valuable skill becoming a child of the magenta. good luck!!

 

Great advice.

 

My first flight sim was the original 1982 version. My dad got it for me. It came on a giant "floppy disk," the ground looked like an empty chalk board, there was only one plane available (Cessna 172), the coolest graphics image to see was a skeleton version of Chicago's John Hancock building (but absolutely no other buildings or structures), and Garmin was not a company that existed yet. So the only way to navigate was using VOR. To your point exactly, I've forgotten a lot of those lessons now because I have gotten used to GPS technology in our sim planes.

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I'm looking more at used Cessna 172s on some future day, or these "flying club" situations that some hobbyists seem to participate in.

 

Real world flying clubs do, indeed, make it cheaper to fly. The L-21 in my avatar was owned by a club with 8 members, organized as a stock-holding corporation. In 1995 it cost me about $6000 to buy someone's shares (not all equally divided), and I got a number of good years of flying it before the club changed it's direction in a way I didn't like (and the 'spark plug' had died, too), so I sold my shares for around $7500. When I first bought in, 34A had a 125 HP Lycoming O-290 and a max 1500 lbs gross weight. After a couple of years, a guy wrecked it, so during the rebuild we bought the STC to install a 150 HP Lycoming O-360 and beef the bird up to a 1750 lb. max gross.

 

When I started we charged ourselves $45 per hour (wet) by tach time* for each hour we flew, with a minimum (average) of two hours per month, paid even if you didn't fly it. So It cost me $270 per quarter for the first 6 hours (whether I flew them or not), then $45 per tach hour for any additional time flown. Later we raised it to $50/hour and then to $55/hour, due to increasing costs, both fuel and fixed costs. We also assessed each member some additional money for the engine change. This was at a time when a C-172 might rent for $70 per Hobbs hour*, often more.

 

And all the above included 34A staying in a hangar just north of Denver at what is now Erie Municipal (it was Tri-County at the time), 48V in FSX, since changed to KEIK. Of course we did all of our own work on the aircraft that the rules allowed, including oil changes, helping the A&P with the annual, and much else, helping to keep costs down. I'm guessing it would have been another $8-10 per flight hour (at least) to have someone else do all the work.

 

Of course it would be more expensive now, and not all aircraft would be able to be done that cheaply, even then. But hopefully this will give you an idea of costs as of about 15-20 years ago.

 

=================================================

 

* Hobbs time vs tach (tachometer) time: A hobbs meter runs an hour for an hour by the clock, usually measured in tenths of an hour, and starts running when the oil pressure comes up. An aircraft tachometer, in addition to showing RPM, also records "hours" of operation at a rate that at a typical cruise RPM (2200-2500 RPM, usually, depending on the aircraft) would show an hour matching with a clock hour. But at any lesser RPM it will run at a proportionally slower rate, so that at idle (700 RPM, or so) it will register maybe 1/3 of an hour for each clock hour, an obvious advantage when taxiing, etc.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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Real world flying clubs do, indeed, make it cheaper to fly. The L-21 in my avatar was owned by a club with 8 members, organized as a stock-holding corporation. In 1995 it cost me about $6000 to buy someone's shares (not all equally divided), and I got a number of good years of flying it before the club changed it's direction in a way I didn't like (and the 'spark plug' had died, too), so I sold my shares for around $7500. When I first bought in, 34A had a 125 HP Lycoming O-290 and a max 1500 lbs gross weight. After a couple of years, a guy wrecked it, so during the rebuild we bought the STC to install a 150 HP Lycoming O-360 and beef the bird up to a 1750 lb. max gross.

 

When I started we charged ourselves $45 per hour (wet) by tach time* for each hour we flew, with a minimum (average) of two hours per month, paid even if you didn't fly it. So It cost me $270 per quarter for the first 6 hours (whether I flew them or not), then $45 per tach hour for any additional time flown. Later we raised it to $50/hour and then to $55/hour, due to increasing costs, both fuel and fixed costs. We also assessed each member some additional money for the engine change. This was at a time when a C-172 might rent for $70 per Hobbs hour*, often more.

 

And all the above included 34A staying in a hangar just north of Denver at what is now Erie Municipal (it was Tri-County at the time), 48V in FSX, since changed to KEIK. Of course we did all of our own work on the aircraft that the rules allowed, including oil changes, helping the A&P with the annual, and much else, helping to keep costs down. I'm guessing it would have been another $8-10 per flight hour (at least) to have someone else do all the work.

 

Of course it would be more expensive now, and not all aircraft would be able to be done that cheaply, even then. But hopefully this will give you an idea of costs as of about 15-20 years ago.

 

=================================================

 

* Hobbs time vs tach (tachometer) time: A hobbs meter runs an hour for an hour by the clock, usually measured in tenths of an hour, and starts running when the oil pressure comes up. An aircraft tachometer, in addition to showing RPM, also records "hours" of operation at a rate that at a typical cruise RPM (2200-2500 RPM, usually, depending on the aircraft) would show an hour matching with a clock hour. But at any lesser RPM it will run at a proportionally slower rate, so that at idle (700 RPM, or so) it will register maybe 1/3 of an hour for each clock hour, an obvious advantage when taxiing, etc.

 

I appreciate these details and have a question about the way yours or other flying clubs operate: Since you charged yourselves per hour, does this mean you were typically flying the plane somewhere for day trips only? It seems like flying it to New Mexico for the weekend, for example, would make this whole arrangement not economically worthwhile, no?

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I appreciate these details and have a question about the way yours or other flying clubs operate: Since you charged yourselves per hour, does this mean you were typically flying the plane somewhere for day trips only? It seems like flying it to New Mexico for the weekend, for example, would make this whole arrangement not economically worthwhile, no?

 

 

It helps to understand that, when we talk about "per hour," that's per hour of time that the engine is running. So a four hour flight into New Mexico (and, of course, 4 hours back) might mean you're good for (at 2 hours per day) 4 days (we might fudge a little if there were no scheduling conflicts).

 

Of course we had many by-laws to help ease potential conflicts, including how many trips, how many days per trip per "X" hours (in other words, a minimum of two hours flown for each day you're gone, or some such), and much more -- several pages worth of legal stuff -- after all, we were actually incorporated as a non-profit corporation, so such stuff was needed. But other clubs may do partnerships or other legal mechanisms -- there are many ways to do it. My main point was that, properly handled, a club can be a (relatively) inexpensive way to go, at the (other) cost of having to share with the other members. We even had currency requirements beyond what the FAA required, X hours in Y time frame or else have to get checked out again, for example.

 

There's so much more, but I can't put it all here. Check out AOPA and EAA websites -- both have info on clubs, partnerships and much more.

 

Later: It occurs to me that you may need to know that the per hour costs "wet" means including fuel (reimbursement, if needed), while "dry" means you pay for your own fuel separately.

Edited by lnuss

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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That's great info, thanks. I will dig into this further as you suggest if it's the route it looks like I might be taking.
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...there's a gentleman in England who will hand-craft a livery for you for 10 bucks (USD). Below is his creation for me, which I am totally in love with (pictured near KSEZ as well). Link to contact him below the picture.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]225505[/ATTACH]

 

Finally, today is another big IRL milestone for me because I can officially call myself a student pilot. I signed up for ground school, through an online program....in the first 4 hours of coursework I have gone through so far, it's all material that I am already very familiar with because of MSFS and previous sims. I know that will change very soon but MSFS has clearly given me a leg up in understanding some basic concepts.

First, does your custom livery indicate you work for the Ariz. AG? Don't let it get out. The legislature might take it literally and start an investigation. :-)

Second, congratulations on going IRL. Are you already pricing your first IRL plane?

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First, does your custom livery indicate you work for the Ariz. AG? Don't let it get out. The legislature might take it literally and start an investigation. :-)

Second, congratulations on going IRL. Are you already pricing your first IRL plane?

 

Don't get me started on the legislature and its ability to conduct "investigations" on diddly squat. :)

 

As for an IRL plane, I do admit that I googled how much planes cost and ended up staring at the computer screen for a solid 2 minutes without blinking. Good lord. A flying club seems much more realistic for someone in my position, who will not be investing in this hobby interest for purposes of a career but just for the sake of a hobby. I mean, literally, a forty-year old Cessna 172 goes for the same price as a brand new Porsche.

 

At least if I ever pitch the idea of a Porsche to the wife, she could drive it too!

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Don't get me started on the legislature and its ability to conduct "investigations" on diddly squat. :)

 

As for an IRL plane, I do admit that I googled how much planes cost and ended up staring at the computer screen for a solid 2 minutes without blinking. Good lord. A flying club seems much more realistic for someone in my position, who will not be investing in this hobby interest for purposes of a career but just for the sake of a hobby. I mean, literally, a forty-year old Cessna 172 goes for the same price as a brand new Porsche.

 

At least if I ever pitch the idea of a Porsche to the wife, she could drive it too!

 

I see what you mean, did a search and found a 1973 Cessna C172 J Rocket for sale at £129,795 ($182,660)!! it did say that it was "totally refurbished all new" but still a lot of money.

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I see what you mean, did a search and found a 1973 Cessna C172 J Rocket for sale at £129,795 ($182,660)!! it did say that it was "totally refurbished all new" but still a lot of money.

 

Yep. Per this 2018 article, a brand new Cessna 172 goes for a minimum of USD$369,000 (£262,146).

 

https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/cessna-172-still-relevant/

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And to bring this all back to the core structure of this forum -

 

The ENORMOUS expenses involved in real-life aviation are why MSFS 2020 is an absolute bargain and 'cheap' thrill even at the Premium version price, and just IMHO even including what it DOES cost to get a good enough PC rig and accessories to use it. YES, VR is also 'expensive' and having a good graphics card is spendy, and a yoke/throttle quadrant/rudder pedal setup isn't free either but for that one time entry fee you get a world of global flight sim experiences.

 

Just imagine how much you would have to spend to experience in real life any of the adventure flights folks have taken in MSFS for 'free' outside of their home State/Country.

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And to bring this all back to the core structure of this forum -

 

The ENORMOUS expenses involved in real-life aviation are why MSFS 2020 is an absolute bargain and 'cheap' thrill even at the Premium version price, and just IMHO even including what it DOES cost to get a good enough PC rig and accessories to use it. YES, VR is also 'expensive' and having a good graphics card is spendy, and a yoke/throttle quadrant/rudder pedal setup isn't free either but for that one time entry fee you get a world of global flight sim experiences.

 

Just imagine how much you would have to spend to experience in real life any of the adventure flights folks have taken in MSFS for 'free' outside of their home State/Country.

 

Absolutely true. I am digging into my first several hours of real ground school coursework, and am pretty fascinated by the idea that many of these concepts make complete sense within the game alone. I have not been climbing in the sim correctly. I have not been descending or landing correctly. Dealing with cross winds? hahaha! My knowledge level about the engine: about the same as my fluency in the Greek language. Didn't even know what a magneto does--much less what two of them do--until this course.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just an update that some of you might find interesting:

 

I've connected with a local CFI and will be doing an introductory flight with him on Sunday. We will take off from KFFZ (Mesa, Arizona) and weather permitting head for KSEZ (Sedona). I believe the plane will be a Cessna 172. Meanwhile, I am about 25% finished with my ground school coursework, in addition to doing some extra reading assignments from the various FAA handbooks that were suggested to me by this CFI.

 

It will be pretty surreal actually flying a route that I have taken in MSFS multiple times in the past couple of months. Will post pictures.

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Exhilarating.

 

My real-life airplane for my first actual flight lesson today was a 1969 Cessna Cardinal 177. My CFI performed the take-offs and landings. While at a comfortable and safe altitude, he then turned the controls over to me to perform several controlled turns, ascents, descents, and work on maintaining level flight. I also got lots of introductory practice to taxiing, which seemed harder for me than actually flying the plane. We flew from KFFZ (Mesa, Arizona) south to KAVQ (Marana, a suburb of Tucson), back up north to land at KCGZ (Casa Grande), before heading back to KFFZ. I also got plenty of excellent instruction and demonstration of pre-flight inspection procedures, fuel management, flight briefings, and more.

 

Did almost 40 years of flight simming help me?

 

Probably not except at the most introductory level for purely academic concepts. Sure, I know what the throttle does already in concept, but I had zero muscle memory on whether pulling it or pushing it increases or decreases power. In fact, I increased when I wanted to decrease and vice versa several times in the beginning. Use of the rudder is another stunning difference between simming and flying, because in the sim you can almost forget that there even is a rudder. A novice simmer who is not intentionally trying to fly realistically will never, in fact, bother using the rudder while turning. You just point the joystick in the direction you want to go and the ailerons do their thing. The average non-pilot simmer will not notice the effects of adverse yaw, and therefore will not care about it, ever. Although the sim does force you to use the rudder to taxi, the average simmer hits a button to automatically appear on the runway ready to take off. The rudder is an after-thought. Now, suddenly, I can barely maneuver the airplane without figuring out how to operate it, much less with my feet.

 

Most jarring is the feeling of flying that simming can never compete with, except I assume for high-end professional simulators used to train real pilots. Although the air was moderately good today in Arizona, there were enough "bumps" to get my attention. Keeping the plane straight and level required constant attention and input, far more than what's needed with an MSFS flight, most of which we sim fans fly heavily on autopilot anyway. I also barely use the trim when simming, thanks to over-use and being spoiled by autopilot. That is another area of weakness if you ever want to transition from simming to flying. I was surprised to see how much muscle--literally, muscle--I needed to exert to move the real plane the way I wanted it to move. A simming joystick removes that effort completely, making it artificially easier to turn, ascend, descend, or fly straight.

 

MSFS is a huge help in a couple of regards that might give me advantages over other student pilots. From the moment I climbed into the plane I was instantly very much at home with the entire dashboard, especially of a Cessna Cardinal which is very similar to the classic Cessna 172 used in MSFS. An airplane dashboard is intimidating to most non-pilots, and would probably freak me out if I'd never seen it before. But everything was immediately familiar and recognizable. One of my favorite aspects of simming is using old-school navigation techniques, so I sim a lot using ADF, DME, and VOR technology even when flying planes with glass cockpits. So there were my old friends, right where I expected them to be: the VOR dials, communication and frequency panels, the numbers on them, etc.

 

There's no turning back now. I will definitely keep on simming, but the PPL is certainly a firm goal now.

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