Questions about ILS for real or sim pilots

After crashing/disintegrating my CJ4 on 3 consecutive attempts at landing at Grand Rapids, MI in bad weather, I should probably try to figure out why I am still so confused about ILS approaches. I can usually make them work but not always.

1. The basic sequence I use for ILS is: (a) hit NAV for the desired ILS runway at the destination airport so autopilot knows where to take me in general; (b) when getting about 10 nm from the airport, and I have lined myself up with or without autopilot, hit APPR; © switch my NAV frequency so that the plane is now using "LOC1" as its navigation guide rather than the original GPS route. Assuming I'm doing this correctly, why does the autopilot often veer off and fly in a completely different, seemingly random direction? There are times when I thought it was just taking me into the expected, mapped loop to land the plane. But no, in this case, I was headed straight out over Lake Michigan for reasons that totally confuse me. Help?

2. Given that I kept crashing and/or my plane fell apart because I overstressed it through overspeed, is it fair to say that ILS approaches are not used in extremely windy conditions? The plane I was flying was the Cessna CJ4.

1. The basic sequence I use for ILS is: (a) hit NAV for the desired ILS runway at the destination airport so autopilot knows where to take me in general; (b) when getting about 10 nm from the airport, and I have lined myself up with or without autopilot, hit APPR; © switch my NAV frequency so that the plane is now using "LOC1" as its navigation guide rather than the original GPS route. Assuming I'm doing this correctly, why does the autopilot often veer off and fly in a completely different, seemingly random direction? There are times when I thought it was just taking me into the expected, mapped loop to land the plane. But no, in this case, I was headed straight out over Lake Michigan for reasons that totally confuse me. Help?

 

2. Given that I kept crashing and/or my plane fell apart because I overstressed it through overspeed, is it fair to say that ILS approaches are not used in extremely windy conditions? The plane I was flying was the Cessna CJ4.

The basic sequence should be:

On approach, enter the correct ILS frequency into the NAV1 radio, then engage Autopilot (if not already engaged) and NAV mode.

When the Glideslope diamond appears on the pitch ladder, engage APPR mode.

On the glideslope, keep the airspeed 10-20KIAS above stall speed, descend the glideslope to about 500ft and disengage autopilot - always land the thing yourself!

Given that I kept crashing and/or my plane fell apart because I overstressed it through overspeed, is it fair to say that ILS approaches are not used in extremely windy conditions?

While the wind doesn't help, it sounds as if the wind alone isn't the cause of your problems. Overspeed tells me you were not keeping your speed down to approach speed, rather you lost control of your airspeed, thus you weren't really controlling the aircraft very well. A stabilized approach is needed for a decent landing, that is, the aircraft must be maintaining the approach speed within a very few knots (2-5) in a steady descent and on track to the runway. To achieve that I'd suggest Tim's sequence, though I'd be in NAV mode as the first step, and calm winds, at least until you are consistently landing well every time. You can improve things even more if you take the time and effort to really learn to fly.

But if Tim's suggestions do the job for you, and that suits your fancy then enjoy. If at some time you'd like to progress further (perhaps at times seeming a bit slow), then you might read below.

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In the spirit of "you must walk before you can run," let me suggest that you first learn to do these landings in no wind, flying manually for at least the last mile or so through the landing to a full stop. Because things happen so quickly in a jet, it works best if you first learn to do this in a Cessna or Piper single (or similar), perhaps working up through Bonanza, Baron (or equivalent) before going to a jet. Start by flying in no wind, then progress through gentle winds, then into more aggressive crosswinds.

But you might think about the fact that in the real world flying, pilots first learn to handle the aircraft with pretty good precision in the air, where there's nothing to hit, flying visually and manually. They typically start in simple aircraft and work their way through more complex aircraft, and start with visual flying then into instrument flying.

Fortunately for what you are wanting to do, flying the sim has no consequences for poor flying so you're free to try what ever you like, but even in the sim it pays in the long run to train yourself from the simple to the complex, though it may not be as much fun to start with.

So if you'd like to try it, I'd suggest you look below at the Real Aviation Tutorials & FAQs section of the forum, under Basic Aircraft Control, Maneuvers, and Takeoff and Landing. There are a number of explanations of different phases of flight (all compiled from forum questions and answers over the last 20 plus years), and some simple exercises you can do (preferably in a light single engine plane) to learn more.

OP,

It appears that the CJ won't switch to using the the ILS for guidance if you have a GPS plan which heads to the airport. You can tell it to use VOR 1 with the ILS frequency entered and it shows you the lateral guidance bar, but it continues to follow the magenta line to the middle of the airport. I think I'm doing it correctly, but no joy.

I tried this on short flights from KSJC to KSFO 28L. It will use the ILS guidance if I don't enter a flight plan and just takeoff and head in the direction of SFO.

The FMS system in the Longitude is much easier and seems to work fine in this regard.

I appreciate these great responses, and each of the perspectives. Any others please chime in.

Larry I definitely hear what you're saying. I've actually stuck to a Cessna 172 rigidly all these years specifically because I felt like fake-promoting myself to flying a 747 or whatever was too unrealistic for my tastes. The CJ4 is the first time I've flown anything other than a 172 (on a regular basis).

I also think that in a few years, I might be one of those people who was fascinated for decades by flight simming and then one day takes the plunge and enrolls in flight school. I've got a busy career in a completely unrelated field at the moment but it's in the back of my mind, as a possible future hobby. So I am quite curious about these questions not just from a simmer perspective but from the viewpoint of real pilots (thus the way I worded the thread title).

Neil, if you really are interested in possibly pursuing aviation as a hobby or more, then I suggest that you read Stick and Rudder : An Explanation of the Art of Flying by Wolfgang Langewiesche. Though it was published in 1944 it's still in print today, to give you an idea how timeless it is, and it's still the best book I've come across on part of its title: "An Explanation of the Art of Flying." He looks at how aircraft work from a pilot's perspective, not from an engineering perspective, and (he was an engineer) he even mentions in the book that engineers will sometimes disagree with the way he states things, but (and this is true from my experience) he is talking from the way it seems to a pilot while flying the airplane (not the FAA's answers of course). If you've not flown a real world light plane, an introductory ride at your local flight school will help you get the feel of what Wolfgang is talking about.

Another couple of books I'd highly recommend are Instrument Flying by Richard L. Taylor and Weather Flying by Robert N. Buck. Also on my bookshelf, The Joy of Soaring by Carle Conway, (I used it while towing gliders and getting my Glider Commercial ticket), which is still a good read today, and many consider it the "bible" of soaring. For additional instructional material, I'd recommend going to the FAA's website and reading the various piloting manuals for Private, Commercial, Instrument, etc. along with the AIM (Aeronautical Information Manual). Faa.gov is the FAA site, and you can find all kinds of interesting stuff at https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/ which includes instruction manuals for all manner of things aviation.

For a bit more pleasure reading, while still learning some valuable lessons, Fate Is The Hunter by Ernest K. Gann details his 25 plus years as an airline pilot, starting in the late 1930s and going until after the Korean War -- it's mostly in the cockpit and is fascinating -- I still re-read it from time to time. And the last book I'll mention here for now is The Song Of The Sky, by Guy Murchie.

And that just scratches the surface of what you can do in your spare time to learn a lot more of real aviation, both instructional and historical, much of which also relates to the various PC-based sims.

Neil - I agree with Larry suggesting the Stick and Rudder book! I was introduced to flying when we were approximately 5 years old. My Grandfather and Dad had a Cessna 180 and we got plenty of airplane rides. At that young age, that's all it was, a ride with Grandpa in his airplane. As we got older, we asked more questions about all the gadgets inside of the airplane, yoke, rudder pedals, flap handle, trim tab, you name it, and when asking Gramps about something, he would reply with a short answer, one short enough, that he thought/hoped we wouldn't ask for more! Well, I went out on my own at the age of 18, got my PPL, which to me was one of my most valued accomplishments in my lifetime. Yep, takes a lot of effort, concentration and MONEY! In 1966, they offered the $99 introductory flight, and a PPL course curriculum for $749. I didn't have $749 at the time, so I asked, would it be okay to pay by the hour and they said, "most certainly!" And that's how I paid for my PPL, one hour at a time, only thing that varied was, 1) was an instructor sitting next to me 2) was I flying a Cessna 150 or a Cessna 172?

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I also think that in a few years, I might be one of those people who was fascinated for decades by flight simming and then one day takes the plunge and enrolls in flight school. I've got a busy career in a completely unrelated field at the moment but it's in the back of my mind, as a possible future hobby. So I am quite curious about these questions not just from a simmer perspective but from the viewpoint of real pilots (thus the way I worded the thread title).

Looking back, I never heard of the Stick and Rudder book, nobody mentioned it until I later heard about it AFTER obtaining my PPL. It is a great book, really explains things in detail. If you ever watch Tuskegee Airmen, one of the new recruits has his copy of Stick Rudder with him, on their way to flight training! And now, there is flight simulator! I wish I had both when learning! Neil, you even mentioned earlier, about the chance of taking an introductory flight, which in my opinion, would be a great move! The instructor flies the aircraft and explains things as he flies, which usually calms the newbie of any anxieties he/she might be having! Just a short hop like that can answer many of your questions you have about flight sim. I would say, it would be a great move on your part!

Only you can decide how far you want to take this thing called Flight! Some use flight simulator as an entertainment game, not really taking what it offers seriously. Some are supplementing there desire to continue flying (my case), could be flying has become very costly with fuel costs the way they are. Also changes in one's health will determine if they are allowed to continue to fly! I would venture to say if both these factors ever effect you and your flying, you will want to supplement it in any way. Yes, most of us got "hooked" for a lifetime!

Anyway, Neil, good luck in your endeavor! And always remember, the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask! :rolleyes: Any instructor or licensed pilot will tell you that! All willing to help where they can and that is evident of this forum!

Good luck and enjoy!

Rick :cool::cool:

I appreciate each of your heartfelt responses, and also the amazing personal stories of your connections to flight. How fortunate that some of you got exposed to aviation at such young ages. If I do ever choose to learn how to real-fly, I'll be pushing retirement by then. It sounds like Stick and Rudder will have to be my first buy in any event.

Don't let retirement age scare you...my father-in-law got his PPL after he retired at age 70.

Don't let retirement age scare you...my father-in-law got his PPL after he retired at age 70.

That's awesome. Maybe I should do a slow study over the years so, whenever I do go for it, I can get the highest grade in the class. :cool:

That's awesome. Maybe I should do a slow study over the years so, whenever I do go for it, I can get the highest grade in the class. :cool:

(Provided you can still remember it all!)

(Provided you can still remember it all!)

Don't wait, I got my PPL at age 28, and realised I lost a lot of `airtime` in the meantime despite gliding for many years.

My father in the meantime, passed his PPL at age 63, had a good couple of years before dying at age 65 about 20 years ago.

Don't let age slow you down, you never know what may happen:pilot:!

Amen! I've known and known of all too many folks who planned something for retirement and didn't live long enough to retire, along with a few who became disabled in one fashion or another. So if you can swing it, now would be a good time.

One hint: Once you start the actual flying, do your best to fly at least three times a week. I've had students who flew infrequently and they spent a lot more money on getting their Private than those who flew more often.

Amen! I've known and known of all too many folks who planned something for retirement and didn't live long enough to retire, along with a few who became disabled in one fashion or another. So if you can swing it, now would be a good time.

 

One hint: Once you start the actual flying, do your best to fly at least three times a week. I've had students who flew infrequently and they spent a lot more money on getting their Private than those who flew more often.

My Father had a `ten year plan` for his retirement, and retired two years early so he could enjoy it. Sadly, he only lasted a couple...

Sad stories, gents!

Unfortunately, this is a tough hobby to become skilled at because of the time commitment. If you're committing to it as a career, that's one thing. But I've already got an enjoyable but busy career, a teenager in high school, a wife with her own career, and 3 spazzy dogs. And a couple of other hobbies too. Something's gotta give if I'm going to make the switch from simming to reality. :D

I certainly understand all your life commitments! Many if not most have make choices all the time hoping they are their best for the long term. You and your family should always prioritize what works best for you. None of us is alike.

In my case I'm a disabled former pilot who must live another life now. Simming has been wonderful for me! It lets me "fly" which legally I can't do RW.

Remember if flying a sim is as far as you get, that's OK too. But you should still look at sim tutorials etc. online! They will make your sim experience much more lifelike and meaningful!! I am truly grateful I got RW flying experiences and flying in sims helps me relive some wonderful memories.

Once Covid backs down you might want to try another way to make the right personal RW flying or not choice.

In the US at least, pretty much every local flight training group has "demo days" or other named "try before you commit" to serious lessons sessions. Those who always wondered how bad they were bitten often take a say 1/2 hour to a hour "flight" with an instructor to help determine if their flame is strong enough to commit.

Michael

Obviously, you have to set your priorities according to your needs, desires, etc, but we just want you to be aware of "the best laid plans of..." going astray. Best of luck.

Some of you probably guessed that I would eventually come around to saying this, so here it is:

I've been mulling this over quite a bit and have reached a conclusion that I should just go ahead and do it. The logic I'm relying on is this: even if I can't dedicate tons of time to a brand new real-world hobby at the moment, if I do spend enough time to properly learn, train, and gain a PPL the right way, that at least gives me the chance to continue self-improving and gaining skills as time goes on. There will be one day in the future when, I guess, my life priorities will shift and I can increase my aviation hours. But why begin that day by starting from scratch on that day? Why not be a licensed PPL holder by then?

That's my thinking at the moment anyway. The Phoenix area seems to have a very good population of flight schools. If anyone has tips on how to make sure I select the right one that will teach things the right way, please chime in!

I can't help with the Phoenix area, but I will suggest that wherever you go that you are hiring the instructor, so if you feel he isn't doing the job right or (more common than you might think) if you just have a personality conflict or are not comfortable with his style of teaching, feel free to talk it over with him or the school, or to even look for a free lance (local airport "bums" might make recommendations) instructor. Same deal if you don't feel comfortable with the flight school or its aircraft, feel free to look around.

I'm not trying to say that there are a lot of bad ones out there, but I am aware of students who haven't felt free to change if needed, so thought I'd give you a heads up.

I'd also like to suggest that you check out AOPA (the Aircraft Owner's and Pilot's Association) at https://www.aopa.org/ (click on the "You Can Fly" button) and EAA (the Experimental Aircraft Association) at https://eaa.org/eaa (click on "Learn To Fly"), both of which have resources for new pilots, how to find a flight school, and other good information that may be helpful to you.

When it comes time for ground school, while you'll want to talk it over with your CFI (Certificated Flight Instructor), Sporty's Pilot Shop at https://www.sportys.com/, King Schools, ASA, Jeppesen and others offer everything from complete ground school training to books and videos on various aspects of training. Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche will help you in understanding, too.

I'll also suggest that the more frequently you fly the less it will cost in the long term, since more frequent means a lot less review needed of what you've done before (there's always some review, of course), and the last lesson (and the one before that) are fresher in your mind.

Another learning aid is, after every lesson, when you get home, sit in your easy chair get your hands and feet figuratively on the controls, close your eyes, and re-live the flight, perhaps more than once. This (without the distraction of a sim) will help your muscle memory and your retention of what you have learned. While the sim, properly used, can be valuable, it certainly won't FEEL the same, and often won't PERFORM exactly the same as the real aircraft, but the re-live it method I mention above WILL help you with feel and remembering what to expect in sounds, feel performance and appearance.

I'm not saying don't sim, but I AM saying beware of expecting it to match the real thing, and don't let its differences mess you up in the real aircraft (that can happen, especially early on).

While few learn in tailwheels these days, they can offer advantages over the years in allowing less slop in your flying and teaching you a bit more about precision in flying, among other things, but they're far from a requirement.

Good luck.