Dc3 navigation , particularly to land. Advice please

Started to fly Dc3. The aeromarket freeware seems best, keeps things authentic.

I've flown classic jets - Trident , Comet, using ILS and land using glideslope etc.

But as far as I know the dc3 didn't /couldn't use that.

I can fly it ILS using the Sperry thingy, but I'm struggling when I get to the heading prior to finding the glideslope.

There is a cheat, I believe, (ctrl-a), but how do I know when to turn on to the runway heading in authentic manner.

E,g. Approaching Liverpool runway 27, in a jet the needles would move,when I hit the beam, I would press app button and get lined up automatically.

No app button in the Dc3, so what tells me?

Do I have to spot runway with Mark 1 eyeball and manually fly on to it, ?

Is there a tutorial anywhere?

 

 

Thanks in advance

Started to fly Dc3. The aeromarket freeware seems best, keeps things authentic.

I've flown classic jets - Trident , Comet, using ILS and land using glideslope etc.

But as far as I know the dc3 didn't /couldn't use that.

I can fly it ILS using the Sperry thingy, but I'm struggling when I get to the heading prior to finding the glideslope.

There is a cheat, I believe, (ctrl-a), but how do I know when to turn on to the runway heading in authentic manner.

E,g. Approaching Liverpool runway 27, in a jet the needles would move,when I hit the beam, I would press app button and get lined up automatically.

No app button in the Dc3, so what tells me?

Do I have to spot runway with Mark 1 eyeball and manually fly on to it, ?

Is there a tutorial anywhere?

I'm not familiar with that particular example, but the real world DC-3 Sperry autopilot was very basic. All it had was heading hold and the ability to control climb or descent rate (and thus could approximate altitude hold). It didn't have ILS landing facilities.

 

There were later removed and not replaced. The vast majority of DC-3s still in use have no autopilot at all, they aren't considered necessary.

 

Best regards,

 

John

I saved a pic of my original Sperry in a DC-3. I replaced with updated Bendix King Radio Stack. I thought it would have made a better boat anchor, but I guess it should remain for those who like to maintain original condition?

 

 

Rick :cool:

Edited February 1, 2021 by Downwind66

Hi Cas141, I recomend you download and install Manfred Jahn's C47 available on this site - it will give you the best of the old world and the new world and allow you to do instrument approaches as you have described. It's an awesome freeware airplane, I'd rank it in the top 10 freeware airplanes ever created by anybody!. Best wishes, Max

Thank you gents for your replies.

I probably didn't make my problem clear.-lol

But, I thought I had said that I used the Sperry ok. I enjoy using it to get from one airport to the next. My problem occurs when I want to find the runway of the destination airport. Because I'm using ILS flight and following instructions of ATC,then I get to a point where I am given the heading and height to go on to then meet the glideslope beam.

But of course, there is no means in a DC 3 to "grab" the beam and ride it down to the runway. I would settle for a means to get a heading to line up with runway and then fly in manually from there, but apart from Mark 1 eyeball I cannot see how to locate the runway and thus set a heading?

 

Max- thanks for the wishes, I have the Jahn plane. It has no Sperry ( which spoils it for me ) and it does have an autopilot, as you say. But that makes it a totally unrealistic plane to fly. Yes, it has lovely switches and effects, but it's not a DC3 is it?

 

Back to the aeromarket- it has a radiomagnetic dial , bottom left. I thought one of the needles might point to the ils frequency entered in Nav 1 on the overhead when within range, but there is no reaction by either needle. What input do I make to get such an indication on the overhead .?

Anyone used it?

 

Cheers

The DC-3 autopilot, the old Sperry "Iron Mike" (known these days as "Otto", following the success of the movie "Airplane!") would not fly an approach at all. As others have indicated, it was a wing leveler, and did not even include any vertical modes such as Vertical Speed or Altitude Hold. Those were the days of aluminum planes and Iron Men! If you want to fly the DC-3 with any level of realism at all, you have to man up and hand fly the beast.

 

It's really not that hard, since the DC-3 was, as Ernie Gann once put it, "an amiable cow", and very stable - not at all difficult to fly on instruments. The old stock DC-3 from back in FS-9 was like that, as is the freeware one over on XPlane. IF ATC is giving you vectors to the final approach course, just fly the headings they give you. That should end up with you flying approximately 30 degrees off the final approach course, similar to the runway heading usually. When the localizer needle begins to move off full deflection, you start your turn to a heading that lines up with the final approach course. If all goes well, you should have the vertical localizer needle centered when you roll out of your turn on the final approach heading. To keep the localizer centered, just fly that final approach heading accurately.

 

Keep flying level during all of this, until the horizontal glide slope needle comes off full deflection (it should be above the center of the instrument, ie, showing you below the glide path - we always intercept the glide slope from below, never from above). When the needle reaches the center of the instrument, reduce power and lower the nose a bit. What you are looking for is a particular rate of descent, which will depend upon your speed. At DC-3 final approach speeds of around 100 kts, a descent rate of around 500 feet per minute should keep the glide slope needle centered. If it goes high, add a touch of power and raise the nose a tiny smidge, and do the opposite if the needle goes below the center of the instrument. All the way down final you will be making small turns to keep the localizer needle centered, and small pitch changes up or down to keep the glide slope needle centered. That's all there is to it! But it looks easier than it is...

 

Don't worry though - if this were easy then airline pilots would make as much as baggers at the grocery store!

Here is a gauge for any aircraft from Manfred Jahn that might help your situation.

 

 

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?linkid=25172&catid=218

Edited February 2, 2021 by mrzippy

Avallillo and Mr Zippy... Thanks.

 

Avallillo- I get your first para, I'm quite prepared to fly her in manually. And I appreciate that the beam is about 30 degrees off my approach heading.

But then you go on to talk about the localiser dial. . What localiser dial is there in the DC 3?

I can input the ils frequency in Nav 1. Fair enough - but where on the cockpit dashboard is the localiser? I use. VC and trackir, btw.

Was there one on a real Dc3? Am I missing something obvious?

If I chose to use the Jahn Dc3 I have no problem, but I'll double check the aeromarket DC 3 to try to find the localiser!!

 

Thanks again

The localizer indication is the left/right needle on the VOR instrument. If you had one the glide slope indication would be the horizontal (up/down) needle. You shouldn't need that for a visual landing (see below) but that's where you find the indication.

 

But since you're having trouble landing, even VFR, it might be good to spend time practicing landings in a light plane such as a Cessna or Piper single engine, such as a Cherokee or a C-172.

 

However, in terms of lining up with the runway visually, the runway itself can act as an indicator. Since you're using TrackIR you can watch the runway out the side window as you turn, adjusting your rate of turn (bank angle) so that the runway is pointing straight UP in the windshield when you are on final. If it's tilted left or right a very gentle left or right turn (just 2º-4º heading change at most) until it's pointing straight up, then back to runway heading (in no wind conditions) should keep you lined up on final.

 

As for vertical guidance, the spot in the windshield (hopefully on the runway) that is not moving up or down in the windshield is the spot where, with no changes in pitch or speed, your nose would plow into the ground. Obviously you want to flare to avoid that "plowing" so your actual touchdown point will be just a little beyond that. Of course if you're way too fast the TD point will be quite a bit further down the runway, but practice will let you determine the proper rate of flaring, being sure that as you flare you start looking way down the runway instead of close in to your nose.

 

The above will also let you be able to land at airports without an ILS, localizer, or even a VOR on the field.

The localizer indication is the left/right needle on the VOR instrument. If you had one the glide slope indication would be the horizontal (up/down) needle. You shouldn't need that for a visual landing (see below) but that's where you find the indication.

 

But since you're having trouble landing, even VFR, it might be good to spend time practicing landings in a light plane such as a Cessna or Piper single engine, such as a Cherokee or a C-172.

 

However, in terms of lining up with the runway visually, the runway itself can act as an indicator. Since you're using TrackIR you can watch the runway out the side window as you turn, adjusting your rate of turn (bank angle) so that the runway is pointing straight UP in the windshield when you are on final. If it's tilted left or right a very gentle left or right turn (just 2º-4º heading change at most) until it's pointing straight up, then back to runway heading (in no wind conditions) should keep you lined up on final.

 

As for vertical guidance, the spot in the windshield (hopefully on the runway) that is not moving up or down in the windshield is the spot where, with no changes in pitch or speed, your nose would plow into the ground. Obviously you want to flare to avoid that "plowing" so your actual touchdown point will be just a little beyond that. Of course if you're way too fast the TD point will be quite a bit further down the runway, but practice will let you determine the proper rate of flaring, being sure that as you flare you start looking way down the runway instead of close in to your nose.

 

The above will also let you be able to land at airports without an ILS, localizer, or even a VOR on the field.

 

I'll add to the aove: Normal descent rate in a light or moderately-heavy aicraft is about 500 fpm. If you can't do that you need more practice and perhaps instruction on how to Go-around.

Perhaps tell us whether you are a `newbie` or crinkled old flightsim `veteran`?

The localizer indication is the left/right needle on the VOR instrument. If you had one the glide slope indication would be the horizontal (up/down) needle. You shouldn't need that for a visual landing (see below) but that's where you find the indication.

 

But since you're having trouble landing, even VFR, it might be good to spend time practicing landings in a light plane such as a Cessna or Piper single engine, such as a Cherokee or a C-172.

 

However, in terms of lining up with the runway visually, the runway itself can act as an indicator. Since you're using TrackIR you can watch the runway out the side window as you turn, adjusting your rate of turn (bank angle) so that the runway is pointing straight UP in the windshield when you are on final. If it's tilted left or right a very gentle left or right turn (just 2º-4º heading change at most) until it's pointing straight up, then back to runway heading (in no wind conditions) should keep you lined up on final.

 

As for vertical guidance, the spot in the windshield (hopefully on the runway) that is not moving up or down in the windshield is the spot where, with no changes in pitch or speed, your nose would plow into the ground. Obviously you want to flare to avoid that "plowing" so your actual touchdown point will be just a little beyond that. Of course if you're way too fast the TD point will be quite a bit further down the runway, but practice will let you determine the proper rate of flaring, being sure that as you flare you start looking way down the runway instead of close in to your nose.

 

The above will also let you be able to land at airports without an ILS, localizer, or even a VOR on the field.

 

Inuss . Thanks for your reply, but I do not have trouble manually flying on to the runway to land 😀. I can do that.

My problem is/was (with the DC 3 I'm flying) finding the runway from the approach heading given to me by the ATC. I can , and know where to , look to find it , as I've said, with Mark 1 eyeball, aka my eyes.

Once I have it ahead of me, I can land.

My query was whether there was an instrument in the DC 3 I was flying- which turns out to be identical with the default Dc3- that would point me to the runway.

The" Jahn" one has an unauthentic autopilot, too unrealistic for a Dc3;the one I'm flying has a panel showing an RMI but it doesn't work. It also has an ADF that doesn't have anywhere to put in the ndb number in order to use it.

However, since my earlier post, I have flown a DC 4. On that, the RMI works and it has a localiser dial also. So, in that plane, I am as happy bunny.

 

Anyway, Thanks to everyone who has assisted here. Now lookin for the best DC 4 freeware.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Cas141

but I do not have trouble manually flying on to the runway to land ������. I can do that.

OK, sorry. :( It wasn't evident from your post that it was strictly something with the instrument, though I knew that was primary. It's tough to determine who knows what unless you follow them a lot. Thanks for the clarification, and best of luck.

 

Larry

OK, sorry. :( It wasn't evident from your post that it was strictly something with the instrument, though I knew that was primary. It's tough to determine who knows what unless you follow them a lot. Thanks for the clarification, and best of luck.

 

Larry

 

Cheers! The oldies make a nice change from my favourites. The David Maltby Trident and Comet.