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Thread: Elevator Sensitivity

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrzippy View Post
    I don't think I had ever even come close to a tail strike with the default A-321. Sounds like you are yanking on that yoke a bit too hard!

    (yoke yanker)?? Smooth and gentle yanking will get you off much easier! Where's my mind roaming to these days??
    I should probably be true to form and use my Saitek Avi8tor joystick seeing that it is an Airbus product.
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  2. #12

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    Hi Chris,

    Euhhh ... long time ago we had contact .....LoL

    I think the problem MIGHT be (and has nothing to do with elevator sensitivity), is that you are trying to rotate too early in the takeoff run.
    I.e. that the Vspeeds (V1, Vr) you rely on, don't match the actual aircraft flightmodels.

    Best, Rob

  3. #13
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    I was thinking something similar. If the rotation reaction to pulling the yoke is too strong you may simply be rotating at too high speed.

    In your other thread you mentioned a Vspeeds gauge. (you posted an image of a gauge and were looking for the creator of it.)
    Those gauges are almost always made for one specific plane. (Very specific. So for example only the default fsx 737-800 and not other 737's)

    So try rotating at some lower speed.

    Also dont forget setting full flaps for takoff. Taking off without full flaps would be at higher speed and would be more erratic at rotation. You dont want either of those things.

    By taking off with full flaps (and enough trim) every time you will quickly find the sweet spot for rotation in that plane.

    Flying all sort of different aircraft every flight will prvent building consistency. All aircraft behave differently. Even different 737 addons. Stick to one aircraft untill you know it inside out.
    (Same as with real aircraft really. Very few pilots are qualified to fly more then on airliner type. Almost all fly one type only. And transitioning to another type requires a lot of trsining and numerous supervised qualification flights under supervision of a training pilot.)
    Last edited by il88pp; 01-11-2021 at 09:27 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by il88pp View Post
    I was thinking something similar. If the rotation reaction to pulling the yoke is too strong you may simply be rotating at too high speed.

    In your other thread you mentioned a Vspeeds gauge. (you posted an image of a gauge and were looking for the creator of it.)
    Those gauges are almost always made for one specific plane. (Very specific. So for example only the default fsx 737-800 and not other 737's)

    So try rotating at some lower speed.

    Also dont forget setting full flaps for takoff. Taking off without full flaps would be at higher speed and would be more erratic at rotation. You dont want either of those things.

    By taking off with full flaps (and enough trim) every time you will quickly find the sweet spot for rotation in that plane.

    Flying all sort of different aircraft every flight will prvent building consistency. All aircraft behave differently. Even different 737 addons. Stick to one aircraft untill you know it inside out.
    (Same as with real aircraft really. Very few pilots are qualified to fly more then on airliner type. Almost all fly one type only. And transitioning to another type requires a lot of trsining and numerous supervised qualification flights under supervision of a training pilot.)
    Your comment about full flaps for take off is very interesting. I was never under this impression that full flaps are/were required for a takeoff. I am not a pilot and only base my comment on what I have garnered over the years from YT videos of real flight operations and what knowledge I have gained on this site. I generally select 10-15 degrees flap for a takeoff based on the weights and balance section of each aircrafts cfg file. I've been under the impression that higher take off weights would require more flap extension to get airborne before you run out of runway. Am I correct in this assumption? And thanks for your input.
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  5. #15
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    Regarding flaps. The more flaps the more wing surface, and more wing sueface means more lift.
    Meaning with more flap you will already have enough lift to take off at a lower speed.

    Keeping speed low has many advantages. Easier to abort on case off emergency for one.

    Some think full flaps mean you need more runway to get to takeoff speed but that is wrong. Flaps add a lot of drag making it harder to accellerate.
    With less flaps you accellerate faster, but, as you need to accellerate to higer speed for Vr the distance required for accelerating to Vr is still the same as when using full flaps.

    Imagine the result. In both flap situations the takeoff happens at nearly the same point down the runway. With the same amount remaining. With full flaps however you will be going at much lower speed. Easyer to stop if needed, easier to control, and much less stress in the cocpit as things aren't happening so fast.
    (btw, in fsx the drag effect of flaps on the ground is not modeled well and is lower then it should be, so there's no reason not to extend them and grab some extra lift.)

    Reading online about the real world 737. (boeing's own website, takeoff guidance, flaps) I read that flap setting for takeoff should always be either 35 or 40. Never less then 35.

    I don't warch fsx facebk videos but flaps 10 on a 737 seems madness. Not tried it, at least not recently, but looking at max flap speeds and such I'd say you'd need to be going around 200kt+ (360 kmh) before you have enough lift to get to rotating. With full flaps that would have been a much safer 135kt (243 kmh).

    Regarding weight.
    My observation with more weight on board is: accelleration needs to be done gradually and carefully, is slower and takes longer/more distance. (duh, large weight is harder to shift).
    More trim is also needed.
    I would also takeoff with full flaps for sure to have as much lift as possible to lift that weight. (but i do that always anyway, even without full fuel an aircraft is heavy).
    And as acelleration takes longer/more distance I would make sure to get assigned the longest runway. (by first taxiing to a spot near that runway's start position and only then contacting atc ).

    Imagine running a race with a heavy bakpack on your back. It takes longer to accellerate. And takes more distance. By the time you are finally at speed all the other runners (without backpacks) will be far ahead of you.

    One more thing regardin flaps.
    Setting more/full flaps means the "point of lift" moves backwards. (as flaps extend far behind the wing).
    That means the point of lift moves closer yo the "centre of mass".
    Same effect as when you for example want to lift a heavy beam off the ground. To do that you want to grab it in the middle, where the centre of mass is. If you pick it up closer to one end the other end will keep resting on the ground. (...tailstrike...)
    Last edited by il88pp; 01-12-2021 at 12:53 AM.

  6. #16
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    Your comment about full flaps for take off is very interesting. I was never under this impression that full flaps are/were required for a takeoff.
    Real world aircraft don't usually use full flaps for takeoff, partly because they add so much drag. Typically the 10º-20º range, or so, is what's mostly used, though under certain conditions a few aircraft (Super Cub comes to mind) might use full flaps, but even that's not usual.

    Flight characteristics in the sim often don't match the real world, and lots of folks have picked out work-arounds for problems they encounter, even though those techniques might not be good in real aircraft.

    higher take off weights would require more flap extension to get airborne before you run out of runway. Am I correct in this assumption?
    Not to my knowledge. That mostly adds drag, which doesn't help. Heavier weights require longer runways. In the sim all bets are off because, as I mentioned above, sim aircraft so often have odd characteristics.

    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  7. #17
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    To add to what Larry wrote, not all aircraft require flaps for takeoffs. Cessna 152s, Cessna 172s, and Piper PA-28s do not require flaps in regular takeoffs. Some GA aircraft do not have any flaps!

    In addition, different airliners have different flap settings. For an Airbus A321, there are 4 flap notches and you use the 2nd notch. For an Embraer E170, there are 6 and you use the 4th. The E170 more approaches "full flaps" than the A321 even though the A321 is bigger. So look at the simulated or, failing that, real aircraft's documentation to see which flap setting is best for the aircraft you are simulating.

    For takeoff speed for normal takeoff, follow the checklist and correct flap setting for that aircraft. It will get you to Vr the soonest. When you rotate make sure the nose is at an appropriate pitch and trim as needed to maintain it during the climb. The correct pitch will gain altitude most effectively and also prevent the aircraft from speeding up too much too soon. Airliners usually have power reduced once the gears and flaps are back up as not to exceed 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet - at least in the States.

  8. #18
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    Thanks il88pp, Inuss and TextRich for Flaps 101. Great insight and info here. With the default 737-800, I have always used 10-15 degree flaps and with default weight and balance brings me to around 145-150 knots Vr. Good point about shorter runways, lower speeds and liftoff point.
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  9. #19
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    For the 737-800, I have never used more than 5 degrees of flaps on a "normal" length runway. (major airports). Now testing at my test airport (LO8) 5,000 foot runway and with a full fuel load, I would increase to 10 degrees flaps and never used the full amount of runway for takeoff. Heck, even flying the 747 out of LO8, maybe 20 degrees flaps and would be airborne before the end of the runway!
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrzippy View Post
    For the 737-800, I have never used more than 5 degrees of flaps on a "normal" length runway. (major airports). Now testing at my test airport (LO8) 5,000 foot runway and with a full fuel load, I would increase to 10 degrees flaps and never used the full amount of runway for takeoff. Heck, even flying the 747 out of LO8, maybe 20 degrees flaps and would be airborne before the end of the runway!
    Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around "full flaps". Guess it is dependent on runway length, weigh and balance of the aircraft. Going to see if I can get airborne at Lukla with the 737-800 using full flaps. If you never hear from me again, you probably will be able to find me at the bottom of the valley!
    Last edited by miatamariner; 01-12-2021 at 11:44 AM.
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