My response to comments on the Op-Ed

Hi All,

For some reason, my comment isn't posting on the Op-Ed - so I thought I'd drop it here. It's really important for me to ensure everyone knows that I have no ill will towards anyone here or in the community at large.

To Flapman and any others who appear to have been deeply offended by my post, may I first offer my apologies. I certainly did not expect this reaction and I absolutely did NOT intend to upset anyone. I am sorry, truly. However, I'd like to address some of the comments from Flapman in an attempt to explain my position.

Then why is this person allowed to attack all of us in their Op-Ed?

 

This article is a lengthy attack on people who don't deserve it, because none of this is true. When I read this I see a slap to my face. I'm probably the same age or younger than the Author. These characterizations are completely out to lunch. I won't stand for it. Not here.

 

A couple things on this - the article was not directed at flightsim.com nor its members specifically. It certainly wasn't directed at any specific member. My statements are based on general observations across a multitude of flight simulation communities and channels. If you believe that this does not apply to members of flightsim.com, you could well be right...I haven't specifically seen that behaviour here although I haven't been back long enough to say one way or the other - so I surrender to your assessment.

Imagine telling somebody this, especially the generation with the most student loan debt in the history of the United States. "You're a young person, you don't want education." How does that make them feel? Do their desires feel as valid as the author's?

I believe you have completely misinterpreted my point. What I was trying to convey is simply that simmers from the younger generation have just as much to offer as they do to gain. If anything, my statement is out of respect for enthusiasts in their late teens/early twenties. It's great that you (I think) agree with that position. Unfortunately, not all do. (again this is not directed at flightsim.com but the community at large)

 

How is this not an attack on the motivation and abilities of young people? They can't use an internet search and can't navigate a BBS? Old people can't figure out how to use Discord? But can extremely modify their flight simulators and develop software?

 

How is this not an ageist statement?

 

Again, my point was simply to identify that different generations have had different experiences with the World Wide Web. Each generation tends to favour the current trend of the technology at the time of their initial exposure. Younger people don't really interact with traditional forums or Facebook pages with the same enthusiasm as older people. There are newer communication mediums which attract the younger generation who might not think to search or even consider forums. This is not to say that one generation is more deficient than another - they're simply different. To bridge the gap, we need to come together somewhere - and that effort needs to come from all sides.

Does harassment and misogyny exist anywhere on your site Nels? Is there any flightsim site (with any reputation) that has any barrier to access on the account of sex or gender? Is this a problem that exists anywhere in this hobby? Is it time for heavy handed moderation because Willy Canuck rode into town and declared it required?

Again, not directed at Flightsim.com or its members BUT I will say that I have personally observed misogyny in the wider community. In the worst example, I witnessed a male user suggesting that a female pilot (who was attractive) 'have his babies'. I'm happy to say that this was dealt swiftly by the moderators of the channel - but it highlights that the issue does persist outwith Flightsim.com.

 

 

The only harassment I have ever seen in the decade of my account was when I read the remarks and insinuation of the community within "Op - Ed: The New Era of Flight Simulation." from Willy Canuck. I was thinking of reporting this but couldn't see that function on the site. I actually considered PM'ing you. But OP asked for an open discussion and I was thinking of just copying my comment into the PM.

Again, I apologise if you saw my editorial as harrassment. I must admit, I was quite confused and upset by that interpretation and it certainly wasn't my intent.

I don't think this was an acceptable piece. The ideas of adapting to change and engaging a younger audience felt completely drowned out by the vitriol I had to read to get there. I liked it back when we were welcoming, supportive, understanding, and shared a common interest that binds us together.

 

Lets not bring the silly culture war here, please.

I think you and I subscribe to the same ideals. Perhaps I have not conveyed it in a way that struck the right chords with all readers. I shall consider your comments carefully and endeavour to phrase my thoughts more carefully in future. I do appreciate your feedback but may I suggest that it would be more helpful to me if you could phrase your rebuttal a bit more constructively? I believe that you are making valid points but you have come across (to me) quite angry and vicious. Was this intended? I can look past this to pull out the wisdom of what you are saying but I would rather engage in spirited debate rather than descend into adversarial statements and personal attacks. Is that too much to ask?

If I can leave you with one primary thought (to sum up my thinking) it is this: I am encouraging everyone that fits into the 'older generation' bracket to do everything they can to welcome younger members because that strengthens us overall as a community. That's it. If there's one message I would like everyone to take away - it is that and that alone.

Thank you for your comments. For me, it's not about being 'right' - it's about learning. I appreciate that alternative views represented regardless of how they were phrased.

Best Wishes,

Willy Canuck.

I wasn't going to comment on your Op-Ed, but since you bring it here and seem to not spot certain problems, I will offer some comments:

But I also see many older, seasoned vets like me who seem a bit bitter and impatient. I can understand that bitterness to some extent - age makes you grumpy.

Age doesn't make you grumpy. Certain experiences might do so, and some people tend that way (whether into simming, aviation or whatever), but it's not the age that does it.

I think it's fair to say, in my humble opinion, that the way the new generation thinks, communicates and learns is completely different from those of us who first grabbed the yoke 20+ years ago. Yet here they are; Interested, willing and able. We have a fantastic opportunity to welcome this new influx of simmers yet (I think) we are blowing that opportunity in spectacular fashion.

If they haven't taken the time and effort to learn what was there (in terms of communication) before they were (and still IS there) then they are at least as much at fault as the older folks. Or are you saying that older folks, who aren't necessarily around youth in most situations, have to suddenly learn a new language in order to communicate with young folks who have (apparently) elected to be obscure and purposely different in their communications?

It's one thing to welcome them to where you are and what you are doing (I think this is mostly done well on fs.com), but it's something else to say that the learning and attempt at communication needs to be all on the part of older folks -- the young'uns should bear at least an equal part in attempting to communicate. Granted that aviation and simming terminology can be difficult for newcomers and they need help getting on board. If THAT is what you are trying to say then fine, I agree, but the newcomers need to make efforts as well (most seem to).

Don't rely on the tried-and-true web forum. We need to embrace the new methods of social communication. Surprisingly, I'm not talking about Facebook (my daughter recently informed me that Facebook is 'Old') - nope, in fact I'm talking about Instagram, Youtube, Twitch and Discord. The latter is the most important because this is how most of the young generation communicate and gather nowadays. If your community/site/VA/other doesn't have a Discord channel (at the very least), get one and get a young person to show you how to use it!

My first thought is WHY???? I'm not on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or any of the other so-called social media, and I have no desire to get on them, since I know no one there, have no possible reason to get into an area where literally every character you type and every word you say and every site you visit is tracked and put into someone's (many someones', actually) dossier on me. And I certainly have no idea what I could accomplish in terms of "welcoming young folks" into simming/aviation by going onto those media, or even how to know those folks exist.

Conversely, when they come onto the forum, I can know they are here and, by their very presence here, will be aware that they have some interest in simming, and I'm very willing to help them when they let us know they need assistance (we don't read minds, after all). None of us knows everything about simming or about aviation, but you'll find there's plenty of welcome for new folks (young or old) on this forum, and most folks here honestly try to help.

You certainly don't explain (at least in a way that I understand) why I should get onto portions of the web where everyone bares their soul to the world, let alone how I'd learn about using it other than digging in and making an effort that I'm against doing in the first place. And I certainly see no benefit at all for these new folks and their new way of thinking if I were to do so.

It also seems to me (though it may not be your intent) that you are saying the old ways are bad and only the new ways are acceptable, at least to younger folks. If that's what you are saying, I would have to consider that you are too narrow minded.

Adapt! It's not enough to deploy new social comms, you need to learn to use it and embrace it. If nothing else, get yourself a Discord account (it's free) - you might be surprised at how great it is.

Again, WHY? I don't even know what a "Discord account" is, nor WHY I should want it. WHY should I change my lifestyle (and that's what you are proposing) to accommodate people I've never heard of, especially since I won't get on Facebook and such just to accommodate my kids (in their 40s), so why should I do it for strangers? And why should WE be the ones to adapt? Why shouldn't these young'uns adapt?

Listen as much as you talk. I have recently discovered that much of the younger generation are very knowledgeable. They don't want to be 'taught' - they want to engage (if you let them) - and this can only be achieved by providing them with a level playing field built on respect and bi-directional communication

This sounds to me as if you are saying they don't want to learn, when you say they don't want to be taught. Or maybe you are saying they'd rather dig it out for themselves? I don't think so. So "very knowledgeable" about what? If it's about simming and/or aviation, then they don't need to be taught, and are capable of determining what they want to do. This is one of many areas in your Op-Ed that are fuzzy (at least to me) about what you have in mind.

Encourage new female members. So important!!

To me, that's no different than saying "Encourage new members." Male or female, I don't care, and often there's no specific identification of gender with the new folks, nor should there be. If they want to sim, that's great, and I'll help them the same as I help males. I've been in aviation for most of my adult life, and I've seen good and bad male pilots and good and bad female pilots, and the airplane doesn't care about your gender, just about your competence. I've taught women and they've taught me.

People here that I've specifically known of that were actually identified as female are few, and those specifically identified as male are more common, but there are still plenty of folks here that I don't know (or care) what their gender is. They're all pretty much the same, for me. That also seems to be true for most (maybe all) of the folks on this forum. Granted there are other fora which aren't so kind (but that's true independent of gender, or even independent of subject matter, whether cars, RVS, aviation, book reading, sewing or whatever -- they just seem to like flame wars), but I don't go there.

So perhaps you can clarify WHY! WHY should I change my lifestyle? WHY should I get on a medium I despise? You seem to harp on getting onto the (to me, toxic) so-called social media and you seem to be saying embrace the new without telling me what's so great that I should suddenly spend many, many hours and days and weeks learning to use something that I don't want any part of, just because it's new.

I'm 77, and I'm on this forum only because I think I can help some folks, especially that I can bring some of what I've learned in my years of flying and flight instructing, and many more years of simming and such, to help some folks who have so many common misconceptions about aviation (and about simming) and/or who struggle to learn to fly the sim because they don't have the advantage of a flight instructor helping them learn (online or in sim lessons are not the same). And it's certain that aviation (and simming) is not intuitive -- often just the opposite.

I'd better stop here, but I need clarification to understand WHY you take this approach, and on many parts WHAT you really mean.

I wasn't going to comment on your Op-Ed, but since you bring it here and seem to not spot certain problems, I will offer some comments:

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

 

Age doesn't make you grumpy. Certain experiences might do so, and some people tend that way (whether into simming, aviation or whatever), but it's not the age that does it.

Whatever the catalyst - the two do often walk hand in hand ;)

 

If they haven't taken the time and effort to learn what was there (in terms of communication) before they were (and still IS there) then they are at least as much at fault as the older folks. Or are you saying that older folks, who aren't necessarily around youth in most situations, have to suddenly learn a new language in order to communicate with young folks who have (apparently) elected to be obscure and purposely different in their communications?

 

Ok there's two points in that. On education- no, I'm not saying that simmers shouldn't take responsibility for their own learning - they absolutely should. But we can't jump to the conclusion that they're not committed simply because they asked a question which may seem obvious or basic. I prefer taking a deep breath and responding at face value. However, if a pattern emerges with an individual where they simply ask question after question without demonstrating any self-study, then yes - that would be a problem and they should be advised accordingly (nicely).

On comms - I think it's a bit of both. There is a choice given to every generation as they rotate to the 'elder' status to decide on how they wish to engage with the younger generations. The younger generation doesn't 'elect' to communicate a certain way to be obscure - they just evolve that way. Popular culture and technology plays a huge role as well. Think over the years as to how people communicated/gathered: 50's (Milk bar, sock hop, drive in, etc), 60's telephones became more accessible and used, 70's/80's arcades/movie theatres/shopping malls... after the Internet came into play, much of this went online. Yesterday's Facebook/Twitter is today's Instragram/TikTok/Discord. Things change. Preferences Change. Am I asking you to get an Instragram account? No - but Discord does make certain sense (as an example) because it's really just a mesh of all the things we're already used to: voice channels, chat, forum-style subject areas. It's not a big deal (in my opinion) for us to adopt that whereas I don't think the younger generation would be motivated to embrace the good 'ole web forum. So we could sit back and shake our fist at those 'whipper snappers' or we could engage with them in territory they feel comfortable as young adults. I'm not asking anyone to ditch what they like - just to stretch themselves a little. That's a healthy thing ANYWAY regardless of whether it's flightsim focused or not.

 

It's one thing to welcome them to where you are and what you are doing (I think this is mostly done well on fs.com), but it's something else to say that the learning and attempt at communication needs to be all on the part of older folks -- the young'uns should bear at least an equal part in attempting to communicate. Granted that aviation and simming terminology can be difficult for newcomers and they need help getting on board. If THAT is what you are trying to say then fine, I agree, but the newcomers need to make efforts as well (most seem to).

I do agree but then reality gets involved. We have a lot to offer but they don't necessarily know that. The younger folks will create their own communities without us (which would be a shame) and before we know it, their community will become THE community and we'll be left in the dust because we didn't take the time to get involved nor did we have any chance to influence how it was evolving. So yes, they should invest their time/effort as well but if they don't know what don't know then when will that change. SO - what I'm saying is - we continue to 'be here' and available - but we need to reach out and invite these folks in.....and I don't think it's a stretch to extend our own communities into Discord or other to stay relevant and provide that critical doorway for them to find and walk through.

 

My first thought is WHY???? I'm not on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or any of the other so-called social media, and I have no desire to get on them, since I know no one there, have no possible reason to get into an area where literally every character you type and every word you say and every site you visit is tracked and put into someone's (many someones', actually) dossier on me. And I certainly have no idea what I could accomplish in terms of "welcoming young folks" into simming/aviation by going onto those media, or even how to know those folks exist.

 

To be fair, (apart from Instragram) I don't they they are either. Snapchat and TikTok seem to be the flavour now not that I have any time for it either. I really think Discord (or something similar) is where we should focus and for me - it's really just an evolved combination of forums, live chat and TeamSpeak moulded into a single, slick interface.

 

Conversely, when they come onto the forum, I can know they are here and, by their very presence here, will be aware that they have some interest in simming, and I'm very willing to help them when they let us know they need assistance (we don't read minds, after all). None of us knows everything about simming or about aviation, but you'll find there's plenty of welcome for new folks (young or old) on this forum, and most folks here honestly try to help.

 

Yes although rather than 'when they come onto the forum' - i would say 'IF they come onto the forum' - my question is: what percentage of the overall group are we actually seeing? Is there missed opportunity? Do you care? All relevant questions.

 

You certainly don't explain (at least in a way that I understand) why I should get onto portions of the web where everyone bares their soul to the world, let alone how I'd learn about using it other than digging in and making an effort that I'm against doing in the first place. And I certainly see no benefit at all for these new folks and their new way of thinking if I were to do so.

 

Two things on that: 1. It really comes down to what you are personally motivated to do and I would not presume to understand or dictate such a thing. 2. it sounds like you have a certain preconception about how such venues are used. I've seen people bare their souls on web forums as well but i don't necessarily believe that that's all you will find in web forums. As with anything, it really depends on 'where you go' and what community you land on. So why not create your own realm within the new technology - extend the existing community so that you have a chance to influence yet provide a landing spot for folks tuned to newer tech?

 

It also seems to me (though it may not be your intent) that you are saying the old ways are bad and only the new ways are acceptable, at least to younger folks. If that's what you are saying, I would have to consider that you are too narrow minded.

 

Nope - not at all. But you know yourself that the younger folks will carry on merrily doing something else if we don't at least extend our hand. My point is: if you think sitting around waiting for them to come to you is the best strategy - be prepared for disappointment. You'll get a few heads, sure - but nothing close to what you could get.

 

Again, WHY? I don't even know what a "Discord account" is, nor WHY I should want it. WHY should I change my lifestyle (and that's what you are proposing) to accommodate people I've never heard of, especially since I won't get on Facebook and such just to accommodate my kids (in their 40s), so why should I do it for strangers? And why should WE be the ones to adapt? Why shouldn't these young'uns adapt?

 

LOL! I love this statement. I laugh with respect and affection for it. 'Why' comes down to you and I can't answer that for you. Although I would say that - for me - it makes me feel younger and wiser the more I understand and relate with the younger generation. Ultimately, this does absolutely come down to personal motivation. If you see no benefit at all - not even a reason to explore the possibility of one - then you're probably not going to change....and that's fine. That's up to you. All I could ask is that you don't attempt to block others who might think differently about it. Is it simply yourself that you don't wish to change or is it everything around you (which affects other people too) which you are trying to hold back? -That's my question.

This sounds to me as if you are saying they don't want to learn, when you say they don't want to be taught. Or maybe you are saying they'd rather dig it out for themselves? I don't think so. So "very knowledgeable" about what? If it's about simming and/or aviation, then they don't need to be taught, and are capable of determining what they want to do. This is one of many areas in your Op-Ed that are fuzzy (at least to me) about what you have in mind.

This is probably the one statement I made that caused the most confusion. Based on LOONNG experience having mentored and managed many, many younger folks over the last decade, it is about the approach to teaching and mentorship I'm trying to share. Think back to high school - or possibly training. You had good teachers and bad, right? Bad teachers were easy to spot: did all the talking, didn't give a sh** what you thought and probably spent most of the time yelling at the class. Good teachers were good---why? Because they listened. They asked you questions. They got you thinking but also made you feel like you had a role to play in the process. That's what I'm trying to convey. Don't be the bad teacher. Be the good teacher. Or at least, support those who wish to be the good teacher...but absolutely never be the bad teacher. Does all this make sense?

 

To me, that's no different than saying "Encourage new members." Male or female, I don't care, and often there's no specific identification of gender with the new folks, nor should there be. If they want to sim, that's great, and I'll help them the same as I help males. I've been in aviation for most of my adult life, and I've seen good and bad male pilots and good and bad female pilots, and the airplane doesn't care about your gender, just about your competence. I've taught women and they've taught me.

 

Ok - but I have a reality check to square with you. It is happening elsewhere and any woman will tell you that. My point is - make sure it doesn't happen here. If it isn't - good. Let's keep it that way. No more to say on that really.

 

People here that I've specifically known of that were actually identified as female are few, and those specifically identified as male are more common, but there are still plenty of folks here that I don't know (or care) what their gender is. They're all pretty much the same, for me. That also seems to be true for most (maybe all) of the folks on this forum. Granted there are other fora which aren't so kind (but that's true independent of gender, or even independent of subject matter, whether cars, RVS, aviation, book reading, sewing or whatever -- they just seem to like flame wars), but I don't go there.

I completely respect that. Unfortunately (and apologies for not saying this in my original statement) - the misogyny I was speaking of isn't coming from the older guys (on the whole) - it's the younger guys. I don't want to get into a study group about the cause and effect of that but it's not gone by any stretch. We just need to be mindful of it and act accordingly if it's introduced (most likely) be a new member to the community. Come down hard on sh** like that and leave them sore from the whipping.

 

So perhaps you can clarify WHY! WHY should I change my lifestyle? WHY should I get on a medium I despise? You seem to harp on getting onto the (to me, toxic) so-called social media and you seem to be saying embrace the new without telling me what's so great that I should suddenly spend many, many hours and days and weeks learning to use something that I don't want any part of, just because it's new.

That's just it - I can't. Nothing I say or do will make you decide otherwise - and that's fine. But please support us guys who DO want to make the effort and appreciate us for doing so - because ultimately - we are acting for the greater good of the entire community.

 

I'm 77, and I'm on this forum only because I think I can help some folks, especially that I can bring some of what I've learned in my years of flying and flight instructing, and many more years of simming and such, to help some folks who have so many common misconceptions about aviation (and about simming) and/or who struggle to learn to fly the sim because they don't have the advantage of a flight instructor helping them learn (online or in sim lessons are not the same). And it's certain that aviation (and simming) is not intuitive -- often just the opposite.

 

Hmmm.....So I think I know now where you fit in to all of this. Think of guys like me as a 'vetting agent' where we are reaching out, shaking hands, getting to know younger folk etc. We can handle some of the basic stuff and deal with the drama. However, every now and then, we'll come across that superstar that really wants to learn and demonstrates all the qualities you'd expect before you'd spend your time helping them.

So guys like me come to you and say 'Inuss, I got this young simmer here with the right attitude and a bit of talent who could use a bit of your time' - and you'd say 'great', because you'd know then that this was done on a referral...and you know that any time you'd invest would be appreciated and worthwhile. I think that's how it could possibly work going forward, and the venue would continue to be what it is now, on that basis. Best of both worlds??

Well, at least I now have a clearer picture of your intent -- thanks for some clarification. As to referral, all that's needed is for them to get on the forum with a question; they don't need any "credentials" or vouching for or whatever, just be here.

Take care...

Well, at least I now have a clearer picture of your intent -- thanks for some clarification. As to referral, all that's needed is for them to get on the forum with a question; they don't need any "credentials" or vouching for or whatever, just be here.

 

Take care...

thanks for your time as well, Larry.

I think 'just be here' fits in exactly with what i'm suggesting. I just want to make sure that our potential superstars know where 'here' is :)

If they find their own way here then all the better.