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Remember the good old days?


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Today - trying to set up an intercontinental flight in MSFS - I started thinking longingly of the Autopilots in the original FSX tubeliners. You set the desired altitude, heading, speed and rate of climb/descent, AND THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT YOU GOT - NO MORE - NO LESS. Remember that? The autopilot would not try to outsmart you or do other things on its own.

 

I am an old fuddydut for sure (and not aspiring to become a real pilot), but I don't understand the big push for complex, self-flying/thinking airplanes, self-driving cars, etc. What do we really gain by reducing our required skills and attention trusting computers more than people? Remember the 737 MAX disasters?

 

Sorry! just felt like venting.

Edited by johnost
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Today - trying to set up an intercontinental flight in MSFS - I started thinking longingly of the Autopilots in the original FSX tubeliners. You set the desired altitude, heading, speed and rate of climb/descent, AND THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT YOU GOT - NO MORE - NO LESS. Remember that? The autopilot would not try to outsmart you or do other things on its own.

 

I am an old fuddydut for sure (and not aspiring to become a real pilot), but I don't understand the big push for complex, self-flying/thinking airplanes, self-driving cars, etc. What do we really gain by reducing our required skills and attention trusting computers more than people? Remember the 737 MAX disasters?

 

Sorry! just felt like venting.

 

Trying to draw ANY analogy between msfs and modern autopiots is irrelevant. The A/P in MSFS are not fit for purpose, if my limited experience is anything to go by.

The more an airplane can out-think a pilot the better, if my 1,500 hours of real flying is anything to go by... allied to many pilots of my acquaintance!

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The more an airplane can out-think a pilot the better, if my 1,500 hours of real flying is anything to go by... allied to many pilots of my acquaintance!

 

Hi.

Really!

I hope I never have to fly in your sky. If you cannot outsmart and control an airplane / autopilot you have no business flying in Rea World. You may be OK in the sim.

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Interesting and very different opinions. I don't know enough about the differences between the MSFS autopilots and real life autopilots. But even back in FSX I purchased a very fancy 787, which came with a 120-page manual, and the AP required 19 pages to explain. I believe it was hailed as being very close to the real thing. Unfortunately I am not ambitious enough (not to mention lacking sufficient memory skills) to try to master such complexity.

 

Which brings me to a thought that has occurred to me, and will probably result in great disagreement and condemnation. It is my impression (and I may be wrong), that the flight sim community consist largely of mature and older guys like me, who are not aspiring to become as knowledgeable as real world flight captains. Would it not be commercially realistic for add-on airplane designers to provide an A and B version, where A is as close as possible to a fully complex simulation, while a B version would be equally realistic in looks and flight characteristics, but a little simplified concerning AP, FMC, etc. In other words designed for the hobbyists who enjoy flying, but are not requiring a study-sim?

 

I am in no way proposing a degradation in available sim realism for those who want it, just an accommodation for the less ambitious simmers. What do you think?

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I am in no way proposing a degradation in available sim realism for those who want it, just an accommodation for the less ambitious simmers. What do you think?

 

I was thinking exactly the same thing!

I'm quite happy with the default MSFS autopilot(s), which are equal to what used to be called "Lite" versions by the FSX payware developers, who were supplying to the never-ending demand for more realistic systems than the FSX default without going to 'study' level.

Now it seems that there will be a demand for simplified, default FSX-like systems instead, and why not?

As long as the graphics quality isn't the same as the default FSX planes of course lol...

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I was thinking exactly the same thing!

I'm quite happy with the default MSFS autopilot(s), which are equal to what used to be called "Lite" versions by the FSX payware developers, who were supplying to the never-ending demand for more realistic systems than the FSX default without going to 'study' level.

Now it seems that there will be a demand for simplified, default FSX-like systems instead, and why not?

As long as the graphics quality isn't the same as the default FSX planes of course lol...

 

And where is that demand?

 

Coz my experience tells me that the absence of those sophisticated systems is but one of many shortcomings in Asobo's offering... Unless you include children making `Vroom Vroom` noises while asking for 787's to loop-the-loop!

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And where is that demand?

 

Learn to read.

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Today - trying to set up an intercontinental flight in MSFS - I started thinking longingly of the Autopilots in the original FSX tubeliners. You set the desired altitude, heading, speed and rate of climb/descent, AND THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT YOU GOT - NO MORE - NO LESS. Remember that? The autopilot would not try to outsmart you or do other things on its own.

 

I am an old fuddydut for sure (and not aspiring to become a real pilot), but I don't understand the big push for complex, self-flying/thinking airplanes, self-driving cars, etc. What do we really gain by reducing our required skills and attention trusting computers more than people? Remember the 737 MAX disasters?

 

Sorry! just felt like venting.

 

I agree 100%! Except you didn't have to set the vs. It was set automatically to the default vs when you turn altitude on.

So was fsx so wrong, or is fs2200 wrong? Does anybody know that?

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FSX wasn't wrong as such, it was incomplete.

The complex FSX payware planes used autopilot code which already existed within FSX, but which wasn't fully used in the default FSX planes.

The default MSFS autopilots are on a par with the FSX Carenado payware autopilots, for example.

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What strikes me about the "good old days" is the nature of the community vs 15-20 years ago. We still have a few of the perpetually disgruntled, (I remember several discussions on this forum with a fellow who thought FS2000 was the ruination of the simulation genre, and that it would never succeed like FS98).

The big difference I see, is the absence of the 35-45 generation currently. When I got started in the hobby, there were many active young designers and artists and creators. I had three or four mentors maybe 10 years my senior, but still under 60. Now it seems almost the entire community is either 70+ or 16-19. In the latter group, the interest appears temporal, just awaiting the next bombastic explosion riddled phenomena. My son's mid 40s generation seems totally absent? Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested? To me, that is a bit disheartening! I can learn to enjoy what ever AP or graphical innovation that comes along, But I have no ability to nurture a whole generation oblivious to this hobby, or simulation in general. I don't have an answer, and that is really perplexing!

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Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested?

 

They're all on their Playstations and Xboxes, PC's are for weirdos. Console gaming is HUGE business.

Here in the UK, Amazon sold out of the new XBox Series X in 20 minutes on pre-order launch day.

You can be sure that when MSFS is launched on Xbox, they'll all sit up and take notice.

I pre-ordered mine direct from Microsoft just to run MSFS, and I can wait for as long as it takes to be released.

Edited by tiger1962

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What strikes me about the "good old days" is the nature of the community vs 15-20 years ago. We still have a few of the perpetually disgruntled, (I remember several discussions on this forum with a fellow who thought FS2000 was the ruination of the simulation genre, and that it would never succeed like FS98).

The big difference I see, is the absence of the 35-45 generation currently. When I got started in the hobby, there were many active young designers and artists and creators. I had three or four mentors maybe 10 years my senior, but still under 60. Now it seems almost the entire community is either 70+ or 16-19. In the latter group, the interest appears temporal, just awaiting the next bombastic explosion riddled phenomena. My son's mid 40s generation seems totally absent? Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested? To me, that is a bit disheartening! I can learn to enjoy what ever AP or graphical innovation that comes along, But I have no ability to nurture a whole generation oblivious to this hobby, or simulation in general. I don't have an answer, and that is really perplexing!

 

Late 40's guy here. Have loved all version of the sim. I miss the old AP ways but am enjoying figuring out the nuances of the ones in the newest version. Now if Asobo would just stop breaking them when they put out patches/updates.

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Interesting thread. I use the sim for enjoyment, that’s about it. I suppose if one wanted to be a commercial pilot, then they would be on that career path and 180 page manuals for AP would be required education. SO IMHO it’s all in what a person wants out of a sim. Seems there are sims for about everything.

 

Bottom line is I agree an option for A/B type planes would be great! For me and many others I’m sure the real life career gives the adult daily requirement of stress anyway. Especially in MSFS2020 I just VFR in the sim and try to have some enjoyment for now. And yes, I still use FSX and FS9 on occasion for the fun of it!

 

My .02

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FSX wasn't wrong as such, it was incomplete.

The complex FSX payware planes used autopilot code which already existed within FSX, but which wasn't fully used in the default FSX planes.

The default MSFS autopilots are on a par with the FSX Carenado payware autopilots, for example.

 

What I meant by wrong, is that you couldn't fly the real plane, they way it flew in fsx. So I guess that's true. I don't mind them changing it to a accurate model, but they should tell you how to fly it with documentation, rather than force you to learn it by trial and error, or reading forums, or watching YouTube videos.

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they should tell you how to fly it with documentation, rather than force you to learn it by trial and error, or reading forums, or watching YouTube videos.

 

Yes they should have provided a manual, even a quick start guide for each of the cockpits would have been useful. Nobody has thought to use the interactive checklist feature to find out how to start from cold and dark in any airplane, there wasn't even a hint to do that!

Having said all that, Carenado never produced manuals for their FSX payware planes either, perhaps Asobo have caught the bug from them...

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What strikes me about the "good old days" is the nature of the community vs 15-20 years ago. We still have a few of the perpetually disgruntled, (I remember several discussions on this forum with a fellow who thought FS2000 was the ruination of the simulation genre, and that it would never succeed like FS98).

The big difference I see, is the absence of the 35-45 generation currently. When I got started in the hobby, there were many active young designers and artists and creators. I had three or four mentors maybe 10 years my senior, but still under 60. Now it seems almost the entire community is either 70+ or 16-19. In the latter group, the interest appears temporal, just awaiting the next bombastic explosion riddled phenomena. My son's mid 40s generation seems totally absent? Maybe it is the dearth of PCs and the preponderance of tablets and phones, but that group seems completely uninterested? To me, that is a bit disheartening! I can learn to enjoy what ever AP or graphical innovation that comes along, But I have no ability to nurture a whole generation oblivious to this hobby, or simulation in general. I don't have an answer, and that is really perplexing!

 

 

I agree with you, except I don't see any teenagers in the flightsim hobby. That has me a little worried, because that may signal the end of the hobby, as the older generation disappears. To get interested, teens need space adventures, violence and lightly clad females. :)

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Mom always use to say; "television was the biggest opportunity for education this country has ever seen and we flushed it down the toilet".

 

Most people now walk around every day holding in there hand a computer ten thousand times more powerful than the one that was used to send a man to the moon and what do they do with it. They take picture's of there lunch and post it to there face book. Sad

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I never flew a real airplane with all the expensive avionics included in FSX and MSFS aircraft let alone an AP. I assumed that FSX accurately depicted the AP functions until I started using MSFS. In order to use the G1000 in MSFS, I had to download the actual manual from Garmin. However, if real aircraft react to the AP like they sometimes do in MSFS, I don't know why more pilots are not being killed these days.

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Mom always use to say; "television was the biggest opportunity for education this country has ever seen and we flushed it down the toilet".

 

Most people now walk around every day holding in there hand a computer ten thousand times more powerful than the one that was used to send a man to the moon and what do they do with it. They take picture's of there lunch and post it to there face book. Sad

 

Can't resist pointing out that your post, spelling- and punctuation-wise, supports your comments about education.

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Unfortunately, as I have seen all throughout the internet, spelling and punctuation, even sentences starting with a capital letter seem to be lacking. It makes it harder to read and understand what was said. But this example is by far not the worst that is presented elsewhere. I, myself, am far from the scholarly type but I do enjoy correct spelling and punctuation (and all the letters included in the words) example "the" missing the letter "y" in they". Just look at other web sights to see what I mean. At least I understand what this person is trying to say. And they say it fairly well!!

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I wish these planes were a bit more like the old defaults from FSX. While it's great that the 2020 planes tried to be a little deeper on systems than the FSX defaults, it isn't an improvement if they don't behave the way they should. What good is having an FMC if it won't properly do a Direct-to command?

 

This sim seems to have potential. But what I like to do is fly extremely realistic jets and commuter props in a manner as close to the real-world as possible. That just isn't available right now with 2020. The planes make that impossible. The ATC also needs improving or being replaced with 3rd party software (I'm looking at you, Pro-ATC).

 

I'd say that's all about a year away, if it happens. PMDG will probably lead the way.

 

For now, P3D, with all the great planes available, is where I'll be flying. For me, it's all about the aircraft. The scenery in MSFS will be great once you can fly something decent around with proper ATC.

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Can't resist pointing out that your post, spelling- and punctuation-wise, supports your comments about education.

 

I grew up watching tv and if it were not for spell check none of my post would be readable.......so exactly!!!!

 

By the way my lunch was better than your lunch and I want the world to know it.

 

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