I Shall Persist!

I can't say what you see out your window, but I once took a ride in an aeroplane and the clouds looked like the ones in these pix.

 

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have flying in the real world? You keep commenting about washed out views and scenery even though many of us have experienced this exact thing in the real world. For example, where I live there are mountains less than 100km to the west. One the day they can be almost crystal clear and appear quite large on the horizon, while the next day they are only washed out silhouettes. Both days will be otherwise clear without a cloud in sight. The difference being things like dust, smog, smoke etc. in the atmosphere. MSFS may not get the view right all of the time (and I think they commented on this in one of the recent developer interviews), but previous sims were often too clear and sharp themselves and are not a good baseline to work from. If you want to accurately model the real world, the real world should be what you compare against.

 

As for the clouds, I think a big part of it is again people's experiences and the wide variations around the world. Go look up how many different types of clouds there are for starters. I've seen ones as sharp and defined as the REX photos you posted, and others just as indistinct as what we see in MSFS.

That said, I agree this is not worth losing sleep over.

 

Mac6737

 

It’s the single biggest issue imo. We spend so much time looking at clouds.

Anyhow, not surprised some people can’t see anything wrong. Worked with visuals for decades and I understand the average person can often be completely blind. Often showing an example and explaining helps them see but not always...

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have flying in the real world?

 

As per clouds, it’s not about “representation“ of the real world as those who are not seeing these issues think it is. It is about images in the sim that are out of focus or overexposed. This is a fault. Nothing in the real world is out of focus for example.

Regarding the textures, they are overexposed, it’s a fault, it’s not about clarity or contrast or saturation. I’m not at the PC but will post you a user pic later on.

As per clouds, it’s not about “representation“ of the real world as those who are not seeing these issues think it is. It is about images in the sim that are out of focus or overexposed. This is a fault. Nothing in the real world is out of focus for example.

Regarding the textures, they are overexposed, it’s a fault, it’s not about clarity or contrast or saturation. I’m not at the PC but will post you a user pic later on.

 

So you’re telling me what I’ve seen with my own eyes is wrong? Yes, some clouds are sharper, but others look just like what I see in MSFS.

 

As for the textures, again, many are just fine, and some aren’t, as with any satellite scenery these days. It isn’t nearly as black and white, or simple, as you keep trying to make it. And in the end, MSFS is till far more immersive when looking out the window than previous sims.

So you’re telling me what I’ve seen with my own eyes is wrong?

 

I’m telling you that you are not seeing the problem. Again, you are making comparisons based on what you see in MSFS and what you see in the real world.

You are not “seeing” the clouds in MSFS are out of focus, that they are fundamentally flawed. It has nothing to do with needing to look outside at real clouds and making comparisons. You don’t need to understand a single thing about clouds, you just need to have the ability to see an out of focus image. The images of clouds in the game are wrong, out of focus, 100% certainty!

 

Some can see this and have commented but others just don’t have the ability to see.

I can see this so for me it is a MAJOR problem!

OK, I think it is clear that Skywatcher has an issue with the clouds in MSFS, and as far as I can tell, most people, including me, don't. One thing that bears mentioning is that actual clouds vary enormously in appearance and texture, which logically should also be true of the clouds in a "realistic" flight simulator. I have seen clouds that -- if I hadn't seen them with my own eyes -- I would swear couldn't be real, but they were! In sum, I find the clouds in MSFS to be a nonexistent problem -- just my opinion. End of topic as far as I'm concerned.

You don’t need to understand a single thing about clouds, you just need to have the ability to see an out of focus image. The images of clouds in the game are wrong, out of focus, 100% certainty!

 

You may be completely correct photographically. However for me in the sim, the cloud forms and visibility from inside out is more important.

 

I did a sim flight earlier with real world wx that was probably 99% cover from about 6k to 13k. During the flight there was one glimpse at the mountain valley below that was stunning. The way the clouds enveloped on the way up, the brief glimpse at the ground and the way the clouds looked on top was staggering.

 

Perhaps the focus softness is necessary to give the feel of fading in and out of the clouds. All engineering is a compromise and I would rather have the clouds "feel" right inside them than have a crisp, "I can see, I can't see", set of photographically accurate clouds.

I’m telling you that you are not seeing the problem. Again, you are making comparisons based on what you see in MSFS and what you see in the real world.

 

So when judging how well a simulation of the real world actually simulates the real world, we shouldn't use our experience with the real world?? Not quite sure I follow the logic here. What you call out of focus looks a lot like the indistinct cloud layers I flew through the last couple of times I've flown.

 

I've always found those overly sharp floating billboards that pass for clouds in other sims less immersive than what MSFS has. They may be great for screenshots, but are a poor representation of actually flying through cloud layers. MSFS may not be 100% perfect, but many of us find it better than what we had previously in this regard.

Perhaps the focus softness is necessary to give the feel of fading in and out of the clouds. All engineering is a compromise and I would rather have the clouds "feel" right inside them than have a crisp, "I can see, I can't see", set of photographically accurate clouds.

 

No. MSFS doesn’t even use let’s say such deliberately out of focus clouds as you suggest because it also uses sharp/defined clouds. The clouds closer to the aircraft from what I recall were out of focus but the clouds in the distance are not. These are all the same types of clouds and should all be represented the same but they are not. That’s because it’s a flaw.

No. MSFS doesn’t even use let’s say such deliberately out of focus clouds as you suggest because it also uses sharp/defined clouds. The clouds closer to the aircraft from what I recall were out of focus but the clouds in the distance are not. These are all the same types of clouds and should all be represented the same but they are not. That’s because it’s a flaw.

 

Ok, I accept those flaws and view them as minor. I view actual clouds often from various perspectives of below, through and above and find the simulated ones to be very believable. There are plenty of minor flaws in the sim at the moment that are being worked through and I am very happy it was released early so I can enjoy a 95% perfect simulator rather than wait 2 years for more perfect.

No. MSFS doesn’t even use let’s say such deliberately out of focus clouds as you suggest because it also uses sharp/defined clouds. The clouds closer to the aircraft from what I recall were out of focus but the clouds in the distance are not. These are all the same types of clouds and should all be represented the same but they are not. That’s because it’s a flaw.

 

If all real life clouds were in perfect focus there’s wouldn’t be so many real life VFR pilots flying into them by accident and ending up in a heap. I did that once (without the heap fortunately) after looking at the clouds ahead and aiming to be outside the left (west) edge of the clouds. Then poof! IMC.

:rolleyes: Not sure what is going on in this thread, hard to believe that for someone CLOUDS are the biggest problem in this sim, when there are much more relevant problems waiting to be fixed. In visual department too, like water patterns, but they are not affecting my enjoyment of the sim in anyway.

 

If Skywatcher12 looks sims and games so critically that even FS2020's clouds look horrible and are a major problem, fundamentally flawed, I can't for the life of me understand how he/she could ever stand to fly previous generation of flight sims or play computer games whatsoever.

 

So, I'm so glad I'm one of those who "Are not seeing the problem".

Edited October 13, 2020 by Scratch/Rapsu

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have flying in the real world?

 

Well, that's a bit patronizing, isn't it? I am an 80-year-old retired international lawyer and amateur scuba diver. I have been to about 70 countries, and all 50 US states. My first flight was in a prop plane across the Atlantic.

 

Do you think I'm qualified to opine on what clouds look like, from the ground and from the air? Please take another look at my prior post and compare the texture of those Rex SoftClouds clouds with the one in the post before me.

 

What you (and others) are saying to me and Skywatcher is often attributed to Groucho Marx: "Who are you gonna believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?

 

Mac6737

I apologize that my reply came across as patronizing as that was not the intent. I was trying to understand where you are coming from with your complaints about the washed out views.

 

Based on my personal experience flying to multiple countries and continents myself over the past few years, the screenshots you posted are too clear and sharp.

 

The REX, and other, clouds in previous sims always looked nice and tack sharp, sure, especially from a distance, but always left me feeling like I was flying through a bunch of billboards. I wouldn't say the MSFS clouds are 100% perfect (still haven't seen a good Chinook Arch in any sim yet, for example), but flying through them feels far more realistic and immersive. Flying into and out of cloud actually feels like it does in a real plane.

 

What you (and others) are saying to me and Skywatcher is often attributed to Groucho Marx: "Who are you gonna believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?

 

Again, not the intent. Was never trying to say your eyes were lying. I just think that comparing MSFS to previous sims, that were themselves not accurate representations, is the wrong comparison. Someone else posted a real world photo (might have been in one of your other threads) out the window of the airliner they were flying in that showed how washed out the view can really be. Was that photo wrong? Do you have any photos of your own from your trips that you can refer to?

No. MSFS doesn’t even use let’s say such deliberately out of focus clouds as you suggest because it also uses sharp/defined clouds. The clouds closer to the aircraft from what I recall were out of focus but the clouds in the distance are not. These are all the same types of clouds and should all be represented the same but they are not. That’s because it’s a flaw.

 

Actually, if you had the sim you might have found out that there is a depth of field option that gets applied to the drone camera and showcase mode that are often used for screenshots to simulate what photographers do.

 

https://www.shacknews.com/article/119932/microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-graphics-and-settings-guide

 

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/how-to-graphics-settings-and-performance-guide-8-18-2020/132407

 

https://www.game-debate.com/news/29393/microsoft-flight-simulator-most-important-graphics-options-every-video-setting-benchmarked

Edited October 13, 2020 by loki
Added one more link

Actually, if you had the sim you might have found out that there is a depth of field option that gets applied to the drone camera and showcase mode that are often used for screenshots to simulate what photographers do.

 

https://www.shacknews.com/article/119932/microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-graphics-and-settings-guide

 

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/how-to-graphics-settings-and-performance-guide-8-18-2020/132407

 

https://www.game-debate.com/news/29393/microsoft-flight-simulator-most-important-graphics-options-every-video-setting-benchmarked

 

Totally aware of the depth option. It’s also the first thing I would look to turn off.

Someone else posted a real world photo (might have been in one of your other threads) out the window of the airliner they were flying in that showed how washed out the view can really be. Was that photo wrong? Do you have any photos of your own from your trips that you can refer to?

 

Yes, I recall that, and it looked just like the pix that I, too, take out of plane windows. But most of my MSFS screenshots do not. That's why I started this thread. As I said previously in this thread, lots of the MSFS scenery and textures look terrific. My complaints relate to those that do not, like the one below. I don't think that's what a grassy hill looks like from a mile or so out. You disagree? Then let's agree to disagree. Life is short.

 

Mac6737

Yes, I recall that, and it looked just like the pix that I, too, take out of plane windows. But most of my MSFS screenshots do not. That's why I started this thread. As I said previously in this thread, lots of the MSFS scenery and textures look terrific. My complaints relate to those that do not, like the one below. I don't think that's what a grassy hill looks like from a mile or so out. You disagree? Then let's agree to disagree. Life is short.

 

Mac6737

 

That depends on where it is. I've seen views out the window that look very similar to that. On the other hand, if you recall from earlier in this thread, I also recognized that there are places where the underlying satellite imagery is lower quality (blurry, overexposed etc.). This is a known limitation with satellite, and even aerial, imagery as the quality does vary across the planet, and will be fixed as better imagery becomes available. Microsoft is working on improving this data which comes from their Bing Maps platform.

Yes, I recall that, and it looked just like the pix that I, too, take out of plane windows. But most of my MSFS screenshots do not. That's why I started this thread. As I said previously in this thread, lots of the MSFS scenery and textures look terrific. My complaints relate to those that do not, like the one below. I don't think that's what a grassy hill looks like from a mile or so out. You disagree? Then let's agree to disagree. Life is short.

 

Mac6737

 

I think you would agree the screenshot below shows a further example.

This is a visually terrible representation of what the real scene would look like to the human eye. Contrast is lower than the eye would see, saturation is lower than the eye would see, the highlights hold no detail, the shadow areas are shallow, the scene is nothing like the eye would see. The sky here is realistic, the aircraft is realistic but the scenery is simply appalling.

 

Hopefully people can see the ground problems better than the sky problems. lol

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/50442047481/

Totally aware of the depth option. It’s also the first thing I would look to turn off.

 

Then you must agree that what you claim as a flaw is actually a feature that can be disabled?

Then you must agree that what you claim as a flaw is actually a feature that can be disabled?

 

I'm yet to see a screenshot where the clouds appear normal. This would suggest if the depth feature is the cause, every single screenshot I have ever seen is with the feature turned on despite no indication of the effect anywhere else in many instances.

I'm yet to see a screenshot where the clouds appear normal. This would suggest if the depth feature is the cause, every single screenshot I have ever seen is with the feature turned on despite no indication of the effect anywhere else in many instances.

 

As I said in my post, and the links also say, the depth of field effect is applied to the drone and showcase mode, which is where many, if not most, screenshots are taken. It is also enabled by default. The effect can also be increased or decreased, based on what the user wants to do. However, it is not used for the general flying views (out the cockpit window etc.).

 

https://gamertweak.com/microsoft-flight-simulator-drone-camera/

 

https://www.game-debate.com/news/29393/microsoft-flight-simulator-most-important-graphics-options-every-video-setting-benchmarked

I think you would agree the screenshot below shows a further example.

This is a visually terrible representation of what the real scene would look like to the human eye. Contrast is lower than the eye would see, saturation is lower than the eye would see, the highlights hold no detail, the shadow areas are shallow, the scene is nothing like the eye would see. The sky here is realistic, the aircraft is realistic but the scenery is simply appalling.

 

Hopefully people can see the ground problems better than the sky problems. lol

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/50442047481/

 

I looked at all those terrific screenshots you have on flickr. I agree they look amazing for a $60 sim program. They DO 'look like' an almost photo realistic reproduction of the real world. You won't get any complaints from me for sure.

As I said in my post, and the links also say, the depth of field effect is applied to the drone and showcase mode, which is where many, if not most, screenshots are taken. It is also enabled by default. The effect can also be increased or decreased, based on what the user wants to do. However, it is not used for the general flying views (out the cockpit window etc.).

 

https://gamertweak.com/microsoft-flight-simulator-drone-camera/

 

https://www.game-debate.com/news/29393/microsoft-flight-simulator-most-important-graphics-options-every-video-setting-benchmarked

 

I searched nothing but cockpit views, clouds are the same in every single screenshot or video I’ve ever seen from this game. As I also said, you see both types of clouds, defined and not defined in any type of screenshot you view. It’s clearly how the rendering engine is. You get sharp clouds in the distance as we see in any other type of flight sim or flight game or game in general but foreground clouds in MSFS you get the MSFS exclusive blurry clouds. I can pick them immediately in almost any MSFS screenshot or video I see.

In all my years of flightsimming and participating in flightsim forums, this has to be the most bizarre thread I have ever seen -- a guy claiming to be an expert on flightsim clouds (of all things), and an infallible one at that! Never the slightest hint that he could, just possibly, be mistaken, about anything. Using phrases like "100% certain" and the like. I have known a few ultra-conceited people in my life, but this takes first prize. I have to believe that this must be a giant put-on and that those of us who have tried to present different views from his are just repeatedly falling into the trap. If so, shame on us for keeping this farce going.