Can we have a dedicated VR forum for FS 2020?

We really do need our own forum to discuss VR in...no point mixing with the non-VR simmers as it is an entirely different experience. The problem is whenever the discussion of VR comes up you get the haters try to shut it down. If they want to continue simming in the dark ages then let them. We don't care.

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited July 13, 2020 by VRdude

There is a VR forum at the other site.

There is a VR forum at the other site.

 

What other site? There is a HUGE demand for VR now...the simming community literally demanded it be added to MSFS202, but no dedicated forum here?

 

https://uploadvr.com/ms-flight-sim-2020-vr-high-priority/

Edited July 14, 2020 by VRdude

Hi everyone.

 

I, like most Real World (RW) Pilots, would like to find a way that we can emulate RW conditions in some form or another.

Unfortunately the VR, given all the hardware, software, and necessary throughput limitations at this time, is Not anywhere near where it should be to be a useful add on and enhance the experience sufficiently to justify the cost.

I, personally, lost a lot of faith in the new Asobo / MS team given all the previous reports that this is intended for RW Pilots and now they are releasing a sim without IFR support, prioritizing the console / game aspect and over promising.

 

I hope I am wrong but this may be the first sim that I will not purchase as soon as it comes out. I will see what Mach brings when, and if, the IFR gets added?

 

My goal is simple, find a Tool that I can use and recommend to others to learn to fly and stay current, to practice Spins, L8, Chandelles, 8s On..Ground reference maneuvers, Pilotage, and IFR practice.

 

Like many simmers here, in over 4x years.. I’ve flown all types of real world acft and many configurations of sims, from Navigation ADF, VOR on mainframe 360/30, self built cockpits with motion, Tracking devices, air pillows, servos, hanging chairs, bath tub rollers.. to C130 6DOF.

I am now back to Rudder pedals, Cyborg X, Voice control and external Tablet with Avare for Charts, Plates..

 

My $1000.00 PiMax 8K head set is now mostly a paper weight for many reasons, see some listed below. One of the main reasons is the lack of throughput of the PC, a GTX 1080, 16 GB RAM, and I-9 at 4.8 GHz that can get 135 FPS in XP11 in a small window, only gets 20 FPS in VR at only half per eye resolution and Normal field of view.

This is a slide show display and scenery that looks more like a muddy mess than something I can recognize. If I reduce the AA settings to get smooth updates the scenery looks like a wheat field in Iowa in a windy day. Unplayable.

 

Some of the statements I find interesting when they present some of the worst shortcomings in VR as the best features. I fail to grasp the logic.

 

>>..flying with anything less than a 360 degree view is essentially tunnel vision

 

This just happens to be one of the biggest problems with VR, Tunnel vision.

I have the widest VR on the market PiMax 8K and I am unable to see anywhere close to where I see in real acft, or 3D with the proper Field Of View (FOV) setting.

There is no real 360 vision in any real acft that I know of and in VR the forward view is narrower than in VC-3D without having to turn your head.

You can easily assign View Left Right, to Twist axis, Hat view, or use Voice control, to look around just as easily, in some cases easier for some people because they do not have to turn their head due to some physical impairment.

The only thing you can do better in VR is look down, which would be a benefit if you fly a Heli.

 

>I can still hit instrument approaches like before,

 

That is another wishful thinking, you cannot do that in 3D or VR mode in the sims unless you have another way of displaying you Plates, Sids Stars... If you have a way of doing it is not possible to read them in VR regardless.

 

>>…but VR has brought pilotage back!

 

Another real problem in VR, it is next to impossible to discern anything beyond 2 NM, it’s more like a muddy mess even with high settings, like watching a uncut wheat field in a windy day.

 

>>I plan on going through the entire book of MSFS real world training again when FS2020 has its VR release.

 

The time may be better spent at your local airport and get some real flight time from a CFI and do some real pilotage, Ground reference maneuvers, maybe a real approach with Sids, Stars, Hold, Missed approach and a change of original filed flight plan and see what you need to do in a real IFR flight. I cannot see how anyone can do a complete IFR flight with the VR head set on, without having access to additional information needed in flight.

Hi everyone.

 

My $1000.00 PiMax 8K head set is now mostly a paper weight for many reasons, see some listed below. One of the main reasons is the lack of throughput of the PC, a GTX 1080, 16 GB RAM, and I-9 at 4.8 GHz that can get 135 FPS in XP11 in a small window, only gets 20 FPS in VR at only half per eye resolution and Normal field of view.

This is a slide show display and scenery that looks more like a muddy mess than something I can recognize. If I reduce the AA settings to get smooth updates the scenery looks like a wheat field in Iowa in a windy day. Unplayable.

 

You need a better system. I don't know what you did but my VR has been pretty much "set it and forget it". The simplicity was one of the reasons I replaced my homebuild with a VR setup.

 

 

This just happens to be one of the biggest problems with VR, Tunnel vision.

I have the widest VR on the market PiMax 8K and I am unable to see anywhere close to where I see in real acft, or 3D with the proper Field Of View (FOV) setting.

There is no real 360 vision in any real acft that I know of and in VR the forward view is narrower than in VC-3D without having to turn your head.

 

The only thing you can do better in VR is look down, which would be a benefit if you fly a Heli.

 

I was referring to the fact that I can look around 360 degrees in VR. NOTHING compares to VR when it comes to field of view. Nothing is more realistic. VR replicates the head motion you would be using IN A REAL PLANE.

 

 

You can easily assign View Left Right, to Twist axis, Hat view, or use Voice control, to look around just as easily, in some cases easier for some people because they do not have to turn their head due to some physical impairment.

 

Seriously??!!! So you are trying to make a point that VR isn't optimal because some simmers can't turn their head???? What about everybody else? If they can't turn their head then they can use a hatswitch or trackir with hyper sensitivity. The point of VR is realism. If I want to look abeam in VR I ACTUALLY LOOK ABEAM.

 

 

 

That is another wishful thinking, you cannot do that in 3D or VR mode in the sims unless you have another way of displaying you Plates, Sids Stars... If you have a way of doing it is not possible to read them in VR regardless.

 

Ya you can. I do it all the time. You can look up vor and ils frequencies in the gps in flight..

 

 

 

Another real problem in VR, it is next to impossible to discern anything beyond 2 NM, it’s more like a muddy mess even with high settings, like watching a uncut wheat field in a windy day.

 

Again, you need a better system.

Edited July 14, 2020 by VRdude

Hi VRdude.

I am not sure you understand some of the terms and definitions you use. Trying to propagate miss information does not help anyone.

Do you know what a field of view is?

There is not enough resolution to read any small text in VR, you cannot read all the information you need for a real life IFR flight.

At present there is NO VR, flight sim, hardware, configuration that is sufficient to stimulate reality.

 

Did you read about the real limitations I posted?

What you posted is more in the wishful thinking mode than reality. I have one of the best VR headsets and a PC that is in the 80 % high performance rating and I am still unable to get the results you describe.

OK, so now for someone to get a mediocre results is to go out spend $3,000.00 on a PC, $1500.00 on a VR headset, some super / none existent, flight simulator and still not be able to get the benefits that you describe?

 

I wish you were right, but your post is more of what may be 5-10 years from now. VR is now at the stage where CPM was before the PC actually came on the market.

 

Post your configuration when you make unsubstantiated statements for people to be able to assess what is actually real.

 

Yes, there are many simmers that have physical limitations, be it eyes, arthritis, inability to wear a head set for a long time..

Add to that that less than 2% of all the simmers are using VR and as a developer how would you justify the expense needed to develop and include it. Should it be? Yes, but not as priority.

 

I have no desire to view the Alps using VR in some flight simulator, I can do that by just using GE and no sim needed. Better yet, I just get in a real plane and see all the mountains I want.

 

I wish you were right, but I know what reality is and that is the reason I am posting.

Hi VRdude.

I am not sure you understand some of the terms and definitions you use. Trying to propagate miss information does not help anyone.

Do you know what a field of view is?

There is not enough resolution to read any small text in VR, you cannot read all the information you need for a real life IFR flight.

At present there is NO VR, flight sim, hardware, configuration that is sufficient to stimulate reality.

 

Did you read about the real limitations I posted?

What you posted is more in the wishful thinking mode than reality. I have one of the best VR headsets and a PC that is in the 80 % high performance rating and I am still unable to get the results you describe.

OK, so now for someone to get a mediocre results is to go out spend $3,000.00 on a PC, $1500.00 on a VR headset, some super / none existent, flight simulator and still not be able to get the benefits that you describe?

 

I wish you were right, but your post is more of what may be 5-10 years from now. VR is now at the stage where CPM was before the PC actually came on the market.

 

Post your configuration when you make unsubstantiated statements for people to be able to assess what is actually real.

 

Yes, there are many simmers that have physical limitations, be it eyes, arthritis, inability to wear a head set for a long time..

Add to that that less than 2% of all the simmers are using VR and as a developer how would you justify the expense needed to develop and include it. Should it be? Yes, but not as priority.

 

I have no desire to view the Alps using VR in some flight simulator, I can do that by just using GE and no sim needed. Better yet, I just get in a real plane and see all the mountains I want.

 

I wish you were right, but I know what reality is and that is the reason I am posting.

 

Nobody is saying VR replaces actual flight class lol...but VR will compliment flight class quite nicely. More so than a home cockpit, or trackir obviously.

VR is the next best thing to the real thing. Some simmers have realized that...others will eventually when their systems catch up with VR.

I would argue that virtually everything you said here is wrong.

 

First off, you seem to consistently laugh ("lol") at anyone who disagrees with you. This is rude. We're dealing mostly with opinions here where there is no one absolute right answer. Respect the people you are conversing with if you want to be respected in return.

 

Have you ever actually taken real world flight training? Many of us here have. For primary training I don't see a flight simulator, whether using VR or not, being all that useful. Until you actually do it, it's hard to understand but flying a real plane is just different than the sim.

 

I'd also argue VR is the second best thing, with a full motion simulator such as those used for jetliner training being the best. If such a thing were affordable that's what I would want as my first choice. Some of the home cockpits people have built are pretty close too. Anyone who went to FlightSimCon a few years ago probably saw the cockpit built inside an actual Cessna fuselage. Sitting in an actual aircraft, using actual instruments, looking through an actual window at imagery that surrounds you like the real would does is better than VR, even without the full motion. I remember talking to the builder and he told me a story about how someone who tried his cockpit mentioned there should be air coming through the vents--so he went home, built the circuitry and added a fan that blew air through the vents in response to aircraft motion. Your VR headset cannot reach that level of realism!

 

Ya that's great if someone has the time and resources and space and know how to build a replica. But it would have to be an exact replica to be more realistic than VR. AND even then you would only be flying the one plane. Granted I do most of my flying in GA but I do like to switch them around. Also, think about all the maintenance. VR (with YawVR) enables every simmer to have a full motion replica of EVERY plane in his house.

If they want to continue simming in the dark ages then let them. We don't care.

 

Well, apparently you do, and quite vehemently, too. Personally, I think VR will never really work for flightsims. I'm convinced that the way to go is a 55" monitor and TrackIR. It is an entirely different experience, and I think this site should immediately establish a dedicated forum for TrackIR in FS20.

Well, apparently you do, and quite vehemently, too. Personally, I think VR will never really work for flightsims. I'm convinced that the way to go is a 55" monitor and TrackIR. It is an entirely different experience, and I think this site should immediately establish a dedicated forum for TrackIR in FS20.

 

Maybe decade or so ago. VR is a completely immersive experience. Trackir wasn't about immersion...it was a simple tweak to have a hands free hatswitch.

 

But anyway clearly you have never tried VR and that's too bad for you. You are the one missing out not me.

Well, apparently you do, and quite vehemently, too. Personally, I think VR will never really work for flightsims. I'm convinced that the way to go is a 55" monitor and TrackIR. It is an entirely different experience, and I think this site should immediately establish a dedicated forum for TrackIR in FS20.

 

Oh btw VR already does work with flight sin...actually flying is perfectly suited for VR. Eventually you won't have a choice as I expect monitor gaming will be phased out.

Actually Nels, give this kid his VR forum then he can go and talk to himself with his multiple accounts and stop spamming the rest of the board.

 

Or better still, ban his accounts and block the IP address.

While it's tempting to do that, I don't think it's a good idea to simply block different view points out of hand. Something I see too often in discussions is people who are so firmly set in their ways that they won't even consider anything new or different. The hobby will wither and die if it does not continue to advance.

 

I couldn't agree more. Since MSFT2020 is implementing VR it is time to have our own forum. Once it gets released it would be nice to have a place to come and share ideas and experiences...tweaking etc with other VR simmers since our needs will be different than non VR simmers.

While it's tempting to do that, I don't think it's a good idea to simply block different view points out of hand. Something I see too often in discussions is people who are so firmly set in their ways that they won't even consider anything new or different. The hobby will wither and die if it does not continue to advance.

 

As MSFS does not release with VR, what's the point?

The hobby will wither and die if it does not continue to advance.

 

Very true, but it's surely debatable that VR is actually an advance to Flight Simulation? Headsets appear and disappear with alarming speed - buyers risk spending hundreds on a headset to find it's being discontinued before the warranty has run out. Facebook will drop it's Oculus Go later this year, as reported in this article on ZDNet this week: https://www.zdnet.com/article/vendors-face-the-tough-reality-of-affordable-vr/

The article lists a variety of different VR projects that have failed recently, and the reasons don't seem to have anything specifically to do with price or quality. As I've said before, people simply don't like having their vision obscured or restricted by the clumsy VR headsets, and the market just isn't there to support this technology long term. It's just a series of flashes in the pan until the novelty wears off and there are hundreds of them for sale on eBay.

Xbox Studios have said that their focus is on making their titles playable anywhere, on Windows 10 tablets and smartphones no doubt, whereas VR is tethered to a PC or console. The future doesn't look great for VR in MSFS to me.

To those who do enjoy their VR simming, by all means knock yourselves out - before VR gets banned because people keep knocking themselves out... ;)

Edited July 15, 2020 by tiger1962

To those who do enjoy their VR simming, by all means knock yourselves out - before VR gets banned because people keep knocking themselves out... ;)

 

Very true, Tim! Sorta reminds me of my youth and these places. Got banned very quickly after a few accidents! ;)

 

Tim, while I agree VR is probably only a niche market at this point, unless society does something stupid, down the road a few years, technology will circumvent the problems you note. I say this from my experience with the PC. Back in late 1982, I got my first PC, an 80286-10 machine, with a 24 MB hard disk. Most folks at the company where I worked went with the 8088 PC and a 10 MB hard disk. I was told I would never use all that 24 MB disk space. We had a program that took almost 55 minutes to run on an 8088 PC. My 80286 ran the same program in under 12 minutes. Eventually, I got an 80486-66 PC that would run the same program in a few seconds. I now have an I7-9700K with 1.5 TB of solid state storage, and an RTX 2070. Technology doesn't just advance, it is almost exponential. Someday, I envision a VR device that is the weight of a pair of glasses, and that can be worn comfortably. We are not there now, but it may be possible in 3-4 years??

Yes, it's totally great. This fellow gets great pleasure out of the building process. There are many ways of enjoying the flight simulation hobby. VR is one of them, home building is another, scenery creation, aircraft design...there's virtually no end. Just because you enjoy one niche of the hobby does not make another person's different niche any less.

 

"Exact replica"...well that's interesting. Have you been inside many real planes? While jetliners of the same model probably don't different much, older and smaller planes quite often change over the years as owners customize them, as equipment wears out and gets replaced, etc. Given that, a home cockpit can be perfectly realistic without exactly matching any one specific plane. VR on the other hand, is not inherently realistic. It's just a means of projecting an image. A plane flown in VR is only realistic if the designer of the aircraft made it realistic, and as has been debated endlessly the quality and realism of flightsim planes varies quite a bit. VR is also not full motion.

 

It easily can be with YAW VR. That was my point. With VR you CAN have a full motion, full view simulator for a fraction of the price and time it would take to actually build one...AND you get it for every plane you fly...not just one. Win. Win. :)

Very true, Tim! Sorta reminds me of my youth and these places. Got banned very quickly after a few accidents! ;)

 

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Actually you have what is called a gaurdian set up where you draw in the play area and will get a warning when you get close to the boarders. I didn't mention it for flight sim because you seated.

 

But anyway clearly you have never tried VR . . .

 

Now why would you assume that? Because if I had I would have become an instant convert? Sorry to disappoint, but once I got past the gee-whiz factor I was turned off by the low resolution and restricted field of view. Nice idea, but it's got at best a few years to go before it'll work for serious simmers.

Someday, I envision a VR device that is the weight of a pair of glasses, and that can be worn comfortably. We are not there now, but it may be possible in 3-4 years??

 

If it hasn't happened in the last 28 years I don't think it ever will - VR seems to be stuck with the headset and is therefore it's own worst enemy in appealing to the masses for the long term. It's great strength in my view is as a training aid for the emergency and medical services, they really should push it that way instead of into the public domain.

Now why would you assume that? Because if I had I would have become an instant convert? Sorry to disappoint, but once I got past the gee-whiz factor I was turned off by the low resolution and restricted field of view. Nice idea, but it's got at best a few years to go before it'll work for serious simmers.

 

Tried it numerous times. Limitations remain as when it was launched, prinipaly res, field of view and sustainable frame rate..

What are any advantages, here and now?