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Thread: Why only me........?

  1. Default

    Thanks, thanks and thanks to all people , flightsimmers, who have been so kind to post a reply to my
    ILS story. I tried to recap as best as possible the steps I follow from entering ILS range to flare.
    The story became too fragmented and difficult to read, entirely my fault.
    I ask you please to read the following with environment settings:
    Weather: Clear Airport: ALT=0 ATC=inactive No real World SID's or STAR's
    Plane Landing weight= Fuel set to 15% max

    I love my FS9 and I love my FSX. The past 14 years I have flown FS9 but I allways wanted to fly FSX from the date it was released. I was so happy when my son flew in real live: Finnair B777 EFHK-ZBAA
    and I was able to fly with him in FS9 and managed to 'keep up (roughly) with his flight' from start to arrival as it was presented in FlightAware. My flight FSBuild , My plane PSS B777 . An experience I will never forget. Only beginning this year I was finally able to fund a system capable of running FSX with realistic details. I do not consider myself a sim expert, I have only PC, 1 monitor, 1 Keyboard and mouse. I have no room for other controllers on and below my desk. I'm happy with that. I am not able to fly according to real world procedures and charts. My charts are FSNav. and LittleNavMap. and even FS-GPS and FS-Map. I think, but could be wrong here, that they provide all needed information to set up and follow an ILS landing. I put great value in trimming my aircraft, f.i. FSX RJ-700 I take off and fly manually to 5.000 ft , I fly SPD 190 and trim the plane so that it will fly level and straight without any AP mode engaged. One plane may be more difficult than the other but we can all do this. Changes in ALT , I correct with SPD. So the plane flies manually, AP is not engaged, all values are ZERO. Now imagine that I succeed to position the aircraft such that it will be 30NM before the RW and that it stays on that precise ILS runway heading , imagine that it would maintain ALT 5.000 ft. and SPD 190. All without AP engaged.
    I've set my NAV1 to ILS freq. (OBS not a factor) then in theory I would only have to wait for the
    ILS to become active and when the diamonds are both centered (My Alt a bit below GS) I would only
    have to press AP on followed by press APPR and the plane would fly the ILS. I myself would only
    have to add FLaps in relation to my manual reduction of Airspeed. Now in FS9 I can easily do this
    but in FSX is different. Of course I can fly the Lateral part of the ILS with AP engaged and fly NAV or LOC hold depending on the aircrafts panel and press APPR when a little under GS.
    Now this is not my preferred way I want to fly an ILS landing because it's not realistic ,I just
    want the plane to follow the localizer course and follow the GS descent path which is something
    that I find very difficult to achieve in my !! FSX. I must be doing something wrong here or I begin
    with the wrong assumptions somewhere.
    Well before I make this post is too incoherent too, I will fly now in FSX RJ700:
    KSEA 34R - LEVIR - BOGGI - CYVR 26R ILS 111.95 260 Elev 14ft.

    I'll post my findings,
    Peter
    Last edited by piet06273; 06-01-2020 at 12:17 PM.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Westminster, CO
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    Default

    ...wait for the ILS to become active and when the diamonds are both centered (My Alt a bit below GS) I would only have to press AP on followed by press APPR and the plane would fly the ILS.
    When the diamonds are centered is the time that the AP should start the descent. Engage the APR mode when, or not long after the diamonds start moving at the top. If you wait 'til they're centered the AP gets behind.

    Changes in ALT , I correct with SPD.
    Huh? There's got to be something there that you didn't explain.

    I would only have to press AP on followed by press APPR and the plane would fly the ILS.
    Before pressing the APR button, you should have ALT (Altitude Hold) and HDG (Heading) engaged on the AP, then press APR and let the AP do its thing until you are at or near DA (Decision Altitude), that is, until you disconnect the AP (and speed control, if active).

    The AP is designed to operate in a certain fashion, and FSX is a bit closer to the real world style than FS2004 is. If you don't do things the way it's designed to work, you'll get odd results, as you are discovering.

    So instead of trying to invent your own method of operation, learn how it is designed to be used. You have to do it right in the real world, and FS is trying to emulate that. It's NOT intuitive.

    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  3. Default Why no 'ILS' for me.........?

    thanks again Downwind66 and Lnuss for all your ideas and efforts.
    You know for me it's like FSX was introduced only last year. This puts me about 14 years behind time when it comes to mastering it.
    Now I did this flight FSX CRJ7000 KSEA- CYVR 26R This flight was absolutely an achievement for me.
    I planned it I added my own waypoint ( In the FltPln this is waypoint 8 (after 7 previous WPT's in this particular FltPln which I deleted before saving.)
    The meaning of this waypoint was that I could fly the route in GPS mode (AP=NAV) and that the plane would make a left turn to a heading of 260' at a point 36 miles before the actual beginning of RW26. So the Plan: KSEA > 101 NM 343" to my WPT 8 then a turn left to 261" and then 36NM to RW 26R.
    The coordinates of my WPT8 were : N49 7.33 W122 16.25

    The plane did just that with one minor hdg. correction on my part.
    I was happy, the plane entered the approach, I set NAV 111.95 SPD 170 ALT 5000 waited for the diamonds , First NAV for the localizer then APPR for the active GS. What made me a happy flyer was that the CRJ did follow both the LAT and VERT part of the ILS without problems. It landed only
    slightly to the right of the actual RW, that may be caused by my UTX CAN or by my CYVR afcad.
    This is not a problem for me, it actually engaged and followed the directions given by the diamonds.
    let's try some pic's
    For me this flight and the landing was a 100% succes, I will search a new destination airport now.
    One that is ILS equipped offcourse but also 100% default with no addons or afcads anywhere.
    Something like KSEA - KEUG (with VORTAC and ILS) Thanks again regards


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    Last edited by piet06273; 06-01-2020 at 03:10 PM.

  4. Default

    Ap, alt-hld, and hdg-hld must all be on, also At, and Spd-hld must both be on. You must already be established on approach track, flying level and not climbing or descending. You must be below glideslope.
    Your speed must be slow, and flaps must be fully set before pressing App.
    When all those conditions are met you can click App button. If one or some of the conditions are not met App mode won't work properly and your landing will go wrong.

    The App-mode wil start to control the heading first. (and hdg-hld switches off automatically.) (Do not switch it off yourself like you said in post 1).

    When you cross the glideslope App-mode takes control of altitude as well. Alt-hld switch goes off automatically. And the AT and App-mode try to make the aircraft descend. (again, do not switch either of those off yourself like you said you did in post 1).

    While App mode takes the aircraft down the glideslope AT stays on. And Spd-hld stays on as well. -- of course -- AT and Spd-hld must stay on to reduce thrust -- as without reducing thrust descending would make speed increase.
    (Ap and Spd-hld do not switch off automatically. And you should not switch them off either.)
    Descending is teamwork of AT and AP. AP makes plane descend, AT sees speed go up a little because of the descent and quickly reduces thrust to keep speed at Spd-hld setting. - and if aircraft drops a little below glideslope AP reduces descent rate and AT quickly adds a little thrust.
    (PS: From real world boeing manual: always use AT and AP together, or have both off and fly manually.
    Never use just one of the two.)


    To flare once close to the ground, disconnect At and Ap and flare.

    ---
    you mentioned speeds around 190 before pressing App.
    Was that 190 knots? And are you using "show indicated airspeed" in settings? If indeed 190 kt IAS then that's too fast. You need to fly about 40 knots slower when pressing App.

    From your description you are rushing the approach. Not steady before pressing approach. No steady speed, and too fast, not yet close to landing speed. No steady altitude. Still busy setting flaps. Etc. Do those things earlier so you are fully set up for landing and you have the last 20-25 Nm to fully focus on the autopilot.

    ---
    btw, a LOC-only approach will not make the aircraft descend.
    You say you are trying to do an approach with the aircraft following the Ils to the ground, so don't use Loc, use App-mode.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
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    South Florida
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    Peter - I have never flown into 26R at Vancouver. My ILS approach also put my aircraft off to the right making some necessary adjustments before arriving to the runway. I have always used 26L, as that is the preferred runway they choose to give you.

    If you want a confidence builder, try 26L, it is "Spot On" and the approach will put you dead center on the runway! Try it, you might like it and give you some confidence in the process!

    Rick
    Last edited by Downwind66; 06-01-2020 at 04:47 PM.

  6. Default

    What you said in your post before last was you wanted to "have App-mode make plane descend along glideslope automatically and adjust flap and speed manually".

    First a few words about AP and AT. As I said you should only use AT and AP together. Or not use them at all and fly manually instead.

    The reason for that:
    if you would fly with only AP on you have to maintain the correct thrust yourself. If you don't add enough the plane would quickly stall. And it's difficult to see (or physically feel) pitch going up when the plane is approaching stall speed. That's true in real life as well as in Fsx.
    So never use AP only.

    With AT only the risks are similarly high. The risk of a stall is very high. And so is the risk of a nosedive.
    The problem is that the AT is slow to respond.
    The manual controls are much more effective then the Autopilot control is. And the manual control is also much more instant and direct.
    So if you have AT and Spd-hld On, and you steer manually, and you pull back hard on the yoke, the plane goes into a steep climb but the Autothrottle does not add thrust quickly enough. --> result is stall.

    And if you push the yoke forward the AT will not reduce thrust quickly enough. Speed increases and you nosedive.

    ---
    It sounds like you want to descend along glidepath and manage thrust and flaps. As explained, Bad idea. But if you insist, fly the approach as explained and switch the AT off, while AP stays on and App-mode is guiding you down. Of course once you switch off AT and Spd-hld the App-mode is not guiding you down properly any more. It will try to, but it can only do it if you fly the correct speed manually. If you fly too slowly the aircraft will pitch up (hardly noticeable) then you get below glideslope a little (also hard to spot), and if you don't add thrust real quick there you stall.
    If you are also still setting flaps at that point that makes things even more likely to stall.

    Back to what you said (see start of post) that: "you want to adjust speed and flaps while the aircraft just follows the glideslope." first: With AT OFF your own manual thrust input is part of what makes it descend. So it's not "automatically" following the glideslope.
    Second: "adjusting" speed (reducing for example when you were flying 190kt at glideslope intercept and want to reduce while descending to 150kt landing speed) , with AT OFF but AP and APP-mode on, is extremely dangerous.
    It would mean the steps "manually reducing thrust to a guessed setting, waiting for the AP to hopefully add enough trim."
    problem is, while the AP is adding trim the plane would drift down, getting below glideslope. The AP would then make elevator trim will go all the way up as APP-mode tries to get back to the glideslope. That means slow speed. Elevator trim pretty much determines airspeed. Also the plane would pitch up to reach the glideslope. You'd then be in a stall right away. Adding thrust does not help at that point with trim up and being pitched up. Trim fully up --> speed is low.
    (to prevent stall there you would have to: switch AP and AT fully off, trim down manually all the way from full up to full down, point the nose down out of the stall, add thrust, and fly out of it. Not easy when that happens at 3000ft or so.

    Point was don't try to reduce ("adjust") speed manually if you try to use AP-only on approach. If you try by reducing thrust it leads to a stall. (And it probably goes without saying that reducing speed by manually trimming elevator is not possible if APP-hld and AP is on.)
    Try to keep a steady speed from the moment you catch the glideslope.

    And if you want to fly safely don't do this at all. Use AP and AT Together.
    Flying is not like many people think all about speed, being cool, or clever. Slow and steady wins the race. Better arrive 30 mins late, safe, and calmly then... not at all.


    --
    ps: sorry if duplications here and there. I an using a tiny phone screen at the moment. I can only see about 20 words before text scrolls off the screen. (the splitting headache I have doesn't make it any better)
    Oh, i didn't quote your exact words, just how I understood them. I hope you understand what quotes I mean.
    PPS:didn't see lnuss's post before sending my previous one. Or your positive response to it. They were not there yet when I started typing my reply.

    il.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Downwind66 View Post
    Peter - I have never flown into 26R at Vancouver. My ILS approach also put my aircraft off to the right making some necessary adjustments before arriving to the runway. I have always used 26L, as that is the preferred runway they choose to give you.

    If you want a confidence builder, try 26L, it is "Spot On" and the approach will put you dead center on the runway! Try it, you might like it and give you some confidence in the process!

    Rick
    Well, Peter, 26L wasn't totally "Spot On," but the aircraft landed on the right half of the runway without my help! Much better than 26R!

    Give it a whirl, see how you like that one!

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    Rick

  8. #18
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    Peter - I do like this 26L! Here's the landing again, for a chubby lady, she certainly knows how to dance!

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    You will get thru all the problems you have had with ILS. Then it will make you wonder why it fought you so badly! Good luck and enjoy!

    Rick

  9. Default

    thank you Capt's Downwind66 and TopGun for yr professional input. I will fly my own STAR to CYVR 26L - WA12 ADSIX SAVED 110.70 261' and proceed from there. Look forward to it, will try to add some 'shots'.. Peter
    Last edited by piet06273; 06-03-2020 at 05:29 PM.

  10. Default

    I wellcome myself into the FSX World with a completed and smooth as butter touchdown on
    ILS CYVR 36L , was I dreaming or did I hear some applause coming from behind..............?

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    Last edited by piet06273; 06-03-2020 at 07:18 PM.

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