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Thread: rudder pedal / toe braking

  1. Default rudder pedal / toe braking

    I recently bought myself Thrustmaster TFRP rudder pedals to use with Logitech extreme 3d. Having never used a rudder before it's a real challenge. Especially toe braking is really hard to get the hang of. While landing the Cessna and using toe brakes I'm skidding left and right and I'm all over the place until I come to a stop because I can't press both brakes with equal pressure.

    I tried to mess with response curve in x-plane and set up some thing like this:
    22 - 19
    52 - 24
    80 - 38

    This somewhat helped a little but I'm still not good. Is struggling with it at the beginning a normal thing? What would you suggest?

  2. Default

    Hi.
    I am not sure what XP version you have but in the latest versions, around 1136? changes were made to the ground handling and most for the better but some that affect the operation adversely, which is what you experience.
    Changing the Response curve will mostly affect the the Rudder response and not much the brakes, but it may feel like it does because you have larger Zone (Null) with slower response but as soon as you get past that point you will get the the same effect from the brakes.
    The Brakes are mostly On or Off, there is way to change that in PlaneMaker and there may be a Dataref that you can use with LUA, but the only way around it, or better said to work with it, is to use the brakes only when you are very slow and low power input, especially with the C172.
    In real world flying it is recommended that you use the brakes as little as possible, no brakes, and you should try the same in the sim. That said I do think that someone should look into it and get a better response, chances of havin that happen presently are very slim considering that they are behind in their Vulcan and other releases.
    Last edited by flytv1; 03-12-2020 at 12:21 PM.

  3. Default

    I have the latest version as I play it on Steam(mandatory updates on steam). Changing the response curve actually affected the situation plenty. Of course I use the brakes when I have slowed down but I can't wait for the plane to stop by itself, right? BTW please do not be offended. I too would like this issue to be solved.

  4. Default

    Hi.
    No offense taken, as you can see I agree with you that they are Not working as they should and or replicate Real acft behavior from Real World.
    My intention was to minimize your frustration and by slowing down that effect is less pronounced the slower you go. The reason why they behave like that is to give you enough control at slow g speed, but it messes things up the faster you go.
    Here are some things you want to try:
    Save your C172xxxx.acf and look for these parameters and modify them to get the result closer to what you want. The .acf files are basically text files that can be modified with a text editor. You can also use PlaneMaker to accomplish some of the same things.

    P acf/_brake_co 1.0
    P acf/_no_hydro_force_mult_brakes 1.0
    P acf/_brake_to_steer_power 2.0

    By using the Response curves you are increasing the dead zone that the controller responds to, that will also affect your Rudder in flight and it may not be something you want / need, but if it works for you don’t fix it.
    As to Real world flying, using a C172, on a rwy with around 3000 ft and proper technique you should never need to use ground / toe brakes but that is just a side note it does not absolve the developer from fixing the problem and making something that responds in a more realistic fashion.
    Have fun playing around, try “P acf/_brake_to_steer_power 1.0” and see if it helps and go up from there?
    If you want to save time in testing and not having to restart XP you can reload the acft form the Menu.
    Last edited by flytv1; 03-12-2020 at 04:20 PM.

  5. Default

    Well, thanks a lot for the detailed help and effort. I'm not very good with editing files, I have seldom done that in the past but I might try. It scares me though given the fact that my common sense of control of the plane is very very low so I couldn't make it a decent job. I'm a beginner only.

  6. Default

    Hi.
    The .acf file is very easy to Edit.
    Save your file, best to save outside on your Desktop?
    First copy the file you want to edit to the same directory / folder, in Win RightClick on file and LeftClick on Copy, then RightClick on an empty space in the same directory and LeftClick on Paste.
    Now open the original and edit it. If you do not like it just get your copy back.
    If you make a mistake that you cannot recover from you can always fix by redownloading and repairing from Inet

  7. Default

    LOL I know copy/paste stuff, I'm not that daft. As I said I might have a hard time finding the hot spot with the unit I'm adjusting. Anyway I did the "brake_to_steer_power 1.0" thing but haven't tested it yet, later today I will.

    Also I checked the .acf file of Baron B58 but there is no text similar to Cessna's. I haven't yet tried the brakes on Baron.

  8. Default

    Hi.
    I am glad you are making an effort to fix things by yourself, this will help you in the future.
    LR's opinion is, and they seem to be very comfortable with it, that they only provide a tool for others to develop and not necessarily a complete finished product. With the new sim from MS their approach may change but for now it is best to learn and try to fix things that you know are not correct.
    The best thing is to learn how to use the PlaneMaker and make changes to the area that you want. Editing the .acf is only good if you already are familiar with the functions and you can associate them to the proper outcome.
    I've been using XP from the day of their first built and constantly trying to get them to fix things but there is a lot of complacency, and maybe some arrogance, that stops them from listening to the people that want to help them. Things have gotten a little better but there is still a long way to go before we can get in a sim and "feel" that we can simulate real life behavior. I can list hundreds of issues with just the C172 that are incorrect but I would be satisfied to just get Xwind Ground and landing phase improved.
    Post here if you need help, or contact me on the private Email. Good luck, and I hope you have a lot of free time to get the results you want.

  9. Default

    Yes, I have very recently solved the problem with a very radical response curve edit. Now I can slow down and stop the Cessna in a straight line. The feeling is amazing I must say. I enjoy the landing as it's the best part of the flight for me and with this pedal, it's much better than stopping awkwardly with the joystick trigger which I used to do.

    Thank you good sir for all the help and support, I will surely contact you if I need. It's nice to get assistance how insignificant your issue may be. Many times I have been ignored at steam forums when I needed help.
    Last edited by Lightwalker; 03-13-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  10. Default

    Hi.
    Here are some more ideas, things you may want to try at some point, if you find them annoying:

    Note: Save your C172SP folder ..\X-Plane 11\Aircraft\Laminar Research\Cessna 172SP folder and or any other file that you may modify, before you start, in case you want to revert back to original data.

    Using Wordpad to modify C172---.acf OK for 40+

    Remove or reduce the excessive Windshield color and reflections.
    Best is to edit the file glass_inn.dds found in ..\Aircraft\Laminar Research\Cessna 172SP\objects glass_inn.dds and fill the area with black color. Another option, easier, is edit the text file glass_inn.obj found in ..\Aircraft\Laminar Research\Cessna 172SP\objects change the line GLOBAL_specular 1.0 to 0.5

    Rudder on the ground adjust
    P acf/_brake_co 1.0
    P acf/_no_hydro_force_mult_brakes 1.0
    P acf/_brake_to_steer_power 2.0 try 1.0

    Moves Cpit to proper view:
    1. P acf/_pe_xyz/0 -0.700000012 L/R =smaller neg
    2. P acf/_pe_xyz/1 1.520000048 U/D Smal=Down
    3. P acf/_pe_xyz/2 2.830000000 F/B Small=Front
    Increase Flap Deploy time to 6 sec.
    P acf/_flap1_dn/count 12
    P acf/_flap2_dn/count 12

    P acf/_slat1_dn/count 12 was 10
    P acf/_slat2_dn/count 12
    P acf/_flap_ext_time 7.0
    P acf/_flap_ret_time 7.0

    P acf/_average_mac_acf 4.600265980


    Moves wings Down and Back 172 SP 6Pk
    P _obja/31/_v10_att_y_acf_prt_ref -0.300000012
    P _obja/31/_v10_att_z_acf_prt_ref 0.300000012

    Moves wings Down and Back 172 G1000
    P _obja/18/_v10_att_y_acf_prt_ref -0.30000012 was 0
    P _obja/18/_v10_att_z_acf_prt_ref 0.300000012
    Lights move
    1. P _obja/21/_v10_att_y_acf_prt_ref -0.300000012
    P _obja/21/_v10_att_z_acf_prt_ref 0.300000012

    RIGHT TURN TEND CORRECT
    P acf/_ailn_tab 0.004550000 //for 40 rc1 .00355 for RC2
    P acf/_rudd_tab 0.004000000 // .002 was 005

    DIEHEDRAL better rudder control in Xwind
    P _wing/10/_dihed_design 3.500000000 was 1.5 try 2.5
    P _wing/11/_dihed_design 3.500000000

    No Particles
    P acf/_no_default_engine_fx 1 --If missing add them next to Gun in .acf was 0
    P acf/_no_default_gear_fx 1 --If missing add them next to Gun in .acf
    P acf/_no_default_gun_fx 1


    Xp11 lighter Texture / Tone

    Note: Save your original file first.
    In file "tone_map.glsl" located in ….\Resources\shaders look for text below and try different values for a lighter texture. Test during day and Dawn Dusk and make sure you are not too light during those times.

    float A = 0.07; //was .10 .07
    float B = 0.50;
    float C = 0.10;
    float D = 0.15; //was .20 .10


    Start Plane Maker.exe found in your X-Plane11 folder. Select from top menu:

    File>Open>Cessna_172SP_G1000.acf>Open Aircraft

    Get better response from rudder input for Xwind landings, and in flight, and improve rudder to bank response. Very useful for rudder authority improvement for Xwind, and Spin improvements.
    Standard>Wings>wing2>sweep 0.26 dihedral 004.3, was sweep 02.5 and dihedral 001.5 Note: Try different values. This value will Force you to use the proper technique for Xwind, Start full aileron into wind, and reduce as speed increase for Take off. Aileron partial during landing and increase bank as the speed decreases to full into the wind as you slow below 30-40 KIAS on the ground.
    Exit>Click on lower X upper left.

    Increase the friction to reduce the drift in Xwind.
    Standard>Landing Gear>Gear Data>Landing Gear friction coefficient>rolling co friction>0.045. May change from Version to version, test other values, was 0.035
    Exit>Click on X upper left

    Increase stability for better Xwind control
    Standard>Landing Gear>Gear Data>Gear retraction and nose wheel steering>nose wheel full deflection time 01.7 was 0.07
    Standard>Landing Gear>Gear Data>>wheel and tire geometry> wheel lateral separation 4.00 was 3.00
    Standard>Landing Gear>Gear Data>>wheel and tire geometry>wheel longitudinal separation 4.00 was 3.00

    To reduce the tire noise effect / squeal / skid during Taxi and Xwind. Typical in acft 10deg with rudder pedals. Can be reduced further if needed. Also mods to the skid.wav Sound file is possible.
    Standard>Landing Gear>Gear Loc>n-w steering slow and fast> 15.0 and 10.0... was 30.0, 10.0

    Nose wheel deflection time to minimize the tire noise effect / squeal during Taxi and Xwind.
    Removed in Ver. 11.30?-Standard>Control Geometry>Trim&Speed>nosewheel steering full deflection time>1.2 sec.


    To minimize the abrupt pitch up due to flaps being extended.
    Standard>Control Geometry>Controls>flap and slat deflects.>flap extend and retract time>06.0 and 04.0 was 4.0 and 4.0

    Reduce the exaggerated flap pitch action / drag.
    Standard>Control Geometry>Controls>flap and slat coef.>flat root and tip>0.20 and 0.20 was 0.26, 0.26

    To reduce the time it takes for trim action on Pitch, may not be needed in 1131+.
    Standard>Control Geometry>Trim&Speed>Trim Deflections for airplanes>elevator trim full deflection time>16.0 sec. was 20.0

    Adjust for tendency to turn / bank Right in straight and level flight. Tested in No wind, at ~2730 RPM / full power, 134kts, Standard day 1000ft. MSL, and better T.O. behavior.
    Standard>Control Geometry>Trim&Speed> Trim Deflections for airplanes >aileron trim tab adjust 0.005 and >rudder trim tab adjust 0.000. Note may be different in ver11.30 and above.
    Version 11.30+ aileron 0.007, elev 0.0 rudder 0.009 may try other small changes, was .005 and .008

    Eye Viewpoint adjustment (see Note below).
    Cockpit view settings to view L/R wing tips and part of cowl necessary if you want to learn / teach VFR flying.
    Note: This settings work with Lateral view of 90.21 and 4K resolution Display settings only, you will need other values if your resolution is different.

    To get a better view of the Cowl and wing tips
    Standard>Viewpoint>General>Long arm pilot's view point>002.80ft>Lat arm>-000.69ft>vert arm>001.51ft
    Version 1130+ Long 2.79, Lat. -.66 Ver 1.50 was 3.50, -080, 1.45

    Lower the wings for better view of wing tips.
    Standard>Misc objects>Scroll down to Wings.obj and change long, lat, vert. value to 000.09, 000.00, -000.09 was 0000.0

    Remove Particle / smoke in cpit cowl etc.
    Remove smoke / particles in the cockpit, Plane Maker>Expert>Invisible parts>part visibility > uncheck engine heat and others not needed / wanted.


    File>Save
    File>Quit

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