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VR should be front and centre


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I’ve been simming for 20 years on and off. Even when I didn’t have the money, time or space to sim I always bought PC Pilot to stay abreast with what was going on. Last year I came into inheritance and decided to go full pelt and buy a Wired2fire I7, GTX 1080 Ti 11GB powerful computer. I also was gifted a VR Vive pro for my birthday yes I know, very lucky boy. The computer was a massive gamble on VR. The reason I gambled 1. Couldn’t take PPL lessons due to migraine. 2. Had a hunch that VR was going to be the next best thing with regards to simming.

Ok here is the thing... if I could sit on my backside and fly around the world in VR for the next 20 years none stop I probably would. I jest but VR is outstandingly brilliant compared to a monitor. There’s no comparison it just is. I’ve watched most of the YouTube videos with regards to the new MSFS 20 and have to say it looks great. What is utterly disappointing is that they seem to be neglecting VR which would be tragic if this turns out to be the case. IMO if VR is incorporated into the new MSFS 20 then it’s not only going to be a game changer for us simmers its going to take off the like we’ve never seen before. I fly around in Xplane VR with quite a lot and have ORBX GB Earth scenery installed all over the UK. It’s brilliant and still have to pinch myself from where I was in the early 2000’s. Flying FSX and having auto save installed just in case it froze on a long flight somewhere. Now in VR I can sit in economy on a 737-800 and look at the window as if it was real.

Anybody who’s thinking of making the jump to VR I can only say do it do it do it. You won’t regret it.👍🏻

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IMHO: Functional Accuracy in a "sim" must be the defining issue of any "sim." And that is where the time and money is best spent. Don't misunderstand me, I love pretty pictures and scenery as much as anyone. Having said that, if my aircraft doesn't "fly" correctly I don't care how pretty the scenery is. I'm not looking for a travelog.

 

As an old, disabled pilot, I'm looking for an accurate simulation of RW time so I can be in the cockpit once again! Anything more, like pretty scenery is just a bonus. ;)

 

Rupert

Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow.
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Another factor to consider, although a minor one I'll admit, is that not everyone can use VR. I don't mean simply don't want to, it doesn't work for some. Why? Only one eye makes VR non-operational. You need two functional eyeballs to use VR.

Probably a very minor consideration to the developers, but I would rather, like Michael, have them work hard on a functional simulation of how the various aircraft actually fly, than make the pictures look pretty. Obviously, since I can't use VR, it really doesn't even enter to my considerations of a new sim at all. At least until someone mentions it. Then, if it is a "VR only" type sim, well, I just ignore it.

 

I would say to file all complaints about my attitude towords VR with the horse I ran into on my motorcycle, that caused my loss of an eyeball, but he died at the scene. Just what he was doing on my motorcycle I will never know...

:rolleyes: :p :D :D

 

Have fun, whatever you enjoy using...

Pat☺

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Had a thought...then there was the smell of something burning, and sparks, and then a big fire, and then the lights went out! I guess I better not do that again!

Sgt, USMC, 10 years proud service, Inactive reserve now :D

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I'll have to agree with Michael and Pat, in that VR is just icing on the cake for what should be an actual simulation, working well on a normal monitor, and pretty much complete before they add VR*, IF they do. I do have two eyes, though one isn't great, but I've not yet been able to get enthused about a ton of apparatus on my head (TrackIR is very light, and I just wear a ball cap), so TrackIR or something similar ought to be available, but even before that, get it right!

 


* I don't object to them including the capability for VR, but it shouldn't be high priority before everything else is done right.

 

Larry N.

As Skylab would say:

Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

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I'll have to agree with Michael and Pat, in that VR is just icing on the cake for what should be an actual simulation, working well on a normal monitor, and pretty much complete before they add VR*, IF they do. I do have two eyes, though one isn't great, but I've not yet been able to get enthused about a ton of apparatus on my head (TrackIR is very light, and I just wear a ball cap), so TrackIR or something similar ought to be available, but even before that, get it right!

 


* I don't object to them including the capability for VR, but it shouldn't be high priority before everything else is done right.

 

I do not now, now will I plan for use of VR.

 

It's had many years of development and STILL it's useless with Flight Simulation. So bleating for it doesn't make it either;

1: Desirable

2: Worthy of Debate in `future feature` requests.

 

Happy to look at it again in, say, a further ten tears, by which time the technology should be lighter, faster, and hopefully actually usable

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Asobo has already said they are working on supporting VR in the sim. However, they have also said it isn't just going to be slapped on and they want to make sure it actually works for a flight sim. The sim did originally grow out of a MS Hololens project they had worked on with MS, so they are familiar with VR.

 

Personally, I agree with the points about prioritizing the fundamental features of a flight sim first over VR. VR still feels too much like a stopgap on the road to something better, perhaps some sort of AR/MR.

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Hi, I’ve been flight simming for over 20 years and have had every version of MSFS since FS4, plus many others including X-Plane.

Until a couple of years ago, I’ve had a home made cockpit in the spare room (of sorts).

 

Two years ago I bought an Oculus Rift & as a result I decided to dismantle the cockpit.

I was blown away with the VR experience. In my opinion, once you’ve flown with VR, you will never go back to a monitor. There is no comparison. You just don’t get that immersion from monitors. With VR you are no longer sat looking at a cockpit... you are sat in a cockpit!

 

From what I’ve seen & heard about the new flight simulator it will not have VR on launch, but they are working on it. I reckon it’ll have VR within a few months & I can’t wait! 😀

 

Regards

Steve

Intel I9-13900K - Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX - 64Gb DDR5 5600Mhz - Asus RTX4090 ROG STRIX 24GB

3x 43” Panasonic 4k TVs - Corsair RMx 1200W PSU - 2 x 2TB M.2,  2 x 4TB SATA III and 1 x 4TB M.2 SSDs.

Pico 4  VR Headset - Honeycomb Alpha Yoke - Honeycomb Bravo Throttle Unit

Thrustmaster TPR Rudder Pedals - Saitek Throttles

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Happy to look at it again in, say, a further ten tears, by which time the technology should be lighter, faster, and hopefully actually usable

 

It's got a long way to go, expensive and a very small user base. Personally, I'll be surprised if they bother with it. I know they have made mention of VR but is there anything they have simply said no too? It's all being looked at or in the pipeline. lol

Mark Daniels
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Steve your absolutely right!

 

I'm not the type to get carried away with excitement but VR is quite brilliant for simming.

I fly all over Europe with VR. I could never return to just using a monitor even the new curved ones don't get close. Microsoft really could start the mainstream revolution if they adopt VR.

 

Hopefully in the future someone will come up with an affordable home motion simulator to have 100% immersion.

 

The future.

 

360 Home motion simulator.

VR headset with 4k resolution.

MSFS 20.

 

Could it get any better than this for the flight simmer. I think not.

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For Real World pilots the sim is used as a tool. In order to have a useful tool you must have sufficient throughput in the available hardware to present / simulate flight as clearly and as fluid as possible.

If you cannot have a display that is readable, and updates of the instruments, and views, as possible you do not have a simulator.

The present day the required power to present a good, crisp, useful VR environment is just not there. VR is still too demanding to be used in anything else other than some games that are less complex and or special demos specifically design to demo VR, and have no need for complex code. Flight simulation does not fit into that categories.

I've tested a number of VR sets, and 3D monitors, over the years and did not find any that give you that smooth and clear updates required to give you the feel that is useful as a tool.

I find that even 4K resolution is barely sufficiently clear, smooth, and crisp to have a credible instrument panel and maintain that real time, fluid sensation and clear view expected / needed. I have a fairly powerful system and using VR is just not presently acceptable.

The present sims have sufficient controller assignments that allow you to switch views, look around, as long as you can get a good, basic, starting view location.

VR, smoke / particles, reflections, head bobbing, eye blinking.. is no benefit to real RW pilots that want to use this as a tool.

It is a good idea to have the VR hooks needed for some future development but not something that would take away from what is important and what the systems are able to handle presently.

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For Real World pilots the sim is used as a tool. In order to have a useful tool you must have sufficient throughput in the available hardware to present / simulate flight as clearly and as fluid as possible.

If you cannot have a display that is readable, and updates of the instruments, and views, as possible you do not have a simulator.

 

The present sims have sufficient controller assignments that allow you to switch views, look around, as long as you can get a good, basic, starting view location.

VR, smoke / particles, reflections, head bobbing, eye blinking.. is no benefit to real RW pilots that want to use this as a tool.

It is a good idea to have the VR hooks needed for some future development but not something that would take away from what is important and what the systems are able to handle presently.

 

Well said! A sim has to correctly simulate RW actions to be a successful tool. Otherwise it has no value.

 

IMHO VR as it's presently used is nothing but a game. Maybe a decade or so out, VR might evolve into a sim tool as well.

 

Michael

Edited by Rupert
Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow.
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I, too, don't see how VR fits into flight simming with real hardware. I have a fairly sophisticated 767 based rig with MCP, CDU, full throttle quad, and lots of switches and buttons I need to get to, and don't see how VR would add anything. In fact, given the hand-hardware integration needed to manage a complex airliner, having my eyes covered makes no sense -- I need to see the internal environment of my airliner, interacting with the flight controls and instruments. A large display that only has to show me the external world in brilliant 4K HDR video is all I need. A VR would not be better than that and would blind me from my real world hardware. There are more worthwhile applications for VR.
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  • 3 weeks later...

Thumbs down from me. I have one reasonable eye and one lazy eye so VR probably not going to work for me. Not to mention my wife already moans how hard it is to get my attention on the PC generally, let alone with a VR headset strapped on.

 

As a future possibility for those who want it, great, but it shouldn't be a driving factor.

Vern.
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VR has been a future possibility since the early 1990's, according to Wikipedia:

"The 1990s saw the first widespread commercial releases of consumer headsets. In 1992, for instance, Computer Gaming World predicted "affordable VR by 1994"."

VR is STILL searching for a mass market, and yet it STILL won't go away - it's like a fart in a spacesuit - and that's not because it's 'before it's time'. Other "next big thing" technologies have been and gone since the 1990's such as CD's, DVD's and 3D TV, and it's high time that VR got the message - we STILL don't want it.

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64

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  • 6 months later...
VR has been a future possibility since the early 1990's, according to Wikipedia:

"The 1990s saw the first widespread commercial releases of consumer headsets. In 1992, for instance, Computer Gaming World predicted "affordable VR by 1994"."

VR is STILL searching for a mass market, and yet it STILL won't go away - it's like a fart in a spacesuit - and that's not because it's 'before it's time'. Other "next big thing" technologies have been and gone since the 1990's such as CD's, DVD's and 3D TV, and it's high time that VR got the message - we STILL don't want it.

 

Maybe VR will never take off, or maybe the technology just isn’t ready quite yet. Just because it hasn’t taken off yet, doesn’t mean it won’t. How long did it take for mobile phones to overtake landlines in popularity? How long has it taken for electric cars to gain a proper foothold and then start to outperform the internal combustion engine?

 

I’m sorry, but I just don’t follow your logic. If it’s not a good fit for you, don’t buy it, but why disparage it? Why do you want it to go away?

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glasses dont take off

look at 3d glasses in movies

It was about time everybody should be using them.

Most tvs come 3d ready

 

still, unless you are a 14 year old kid, (or about mentally) when you decide lets watch a Netflix movie, bring the popcorn... hey were are my 3d glasses"?

 

nope

 

you just sit and watch the movie

you dont tell your whatsapp friends that they are losing by not using 3d glasses and how its the new future, an immersive experience and so on

Edited by Kapitan

Kapitan

Anything I say is...not as serious as you think

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glasses dont take off

look at 3d glasses in movies

 

Why? That’s a very different technology, in a very different medium.

 

Why don’t you compare it to TrackIR, which at least is related to gaming?

 

It was about time everybody should be using them.

Most tvs come 3d ready

 

still, unless you are a 14 year old kid, (or about mentally) when you decide lets watch a Netflix movie, bring the popcorn... hey were are my 3d glasses"?

 

nope

 

you just sit and watch the movie

you dont tell your whatsapp friends that they are losing by not using 3d glasses and how its the new future, an immersive experience and so on

 

I agree, I don’t personally think that 3D in TV and film brings much to the storytelling experience, but I don’t begrudge those who might.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Simming is simming and so will never totally replicate the real thing...even with VR.

 

Sure...it will add a degree of realism, but you're still planted on your backside sipping coffee pretending to be Chuck.

 

Don't get me wrong, my Rift is fun (for short periods of time on certain games)...but for a long flight on X-Plane; I don't use it.

 

When VR incorporates/includes additional senses, then I might be tempted, but in its current state...no.

 

I just have better things to do in life...like, experience things for real :-)

 

W33

X-Plane 11, P3D. 32GB RAM, i7 8700k, 1080Ti, Oculus Rift, 1TB SSD
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I am eagerly awaiting a true VR experience in a flight sim.

 

Not everyone has the money, space or ability to build a true replica cockpit that has the proper seat, all the instruments and monitors on all sides to give that true immersive experience.

VR promises that for for less cost, less physical space required to dedicate to a flight sim environment , and far less computing and graphic card power required by a replica cockpit.

 

However there is a serious fly in the ointment and it doesn't matter what the views look like once VR has been incorporated into FS2020 or indeed any other simulator or game.

 

VR as a technology has one serious weakness that has not been anywhere near properly addressed.

That is regarding the input and interaction with the computer itself. A mouse works perfectly with a computer as it it operating in a 2D environment, in a 3D environment a mouse is next to useless.

Trying to operate a keyboard while using a VR headset is also next to impossible unless you happen to have touch typing skills and are somehow able to place the correct fingers on you home keys without removing your VR headset. 99% of people cannot do this.

 

Until a virtual keyboard, or some sort of virtual interface has become a standard on all VR headsets VR will never become the virtual environment it promises to be. I doesn't matter how well a software developer tries to incorporate VR into their product with out a standard technology for interaction with the operating system that hosts the VR environment it simply will not be possible for a true 3D experience. There has been much progress with these technologies such are virtual keyboards and virtual drop down menus but none of them have actually truly cracked the problem as of yet and there is no clear standard that software developers can adopt or incorporate into their software. Some of us are old enough to remember personal computers before windows and the use of mice. Every bit of software had it own way of interacting with the computer, ranging from clunky and almost impossible to remember key stroke combinations, to various forms of menus that varied wildly between different software packages. Until Windows and Mac's both adopted the use of a mouse with standardised menus that were similar in all applications personal computers were a toy or restricted to the geeks that were prepared to learn a totally different way of interacting with their computer for every individual bit of software they had.

 

VR is close to delivering that now, but its not there yet. Until there is a standardised way of interacting with a computer or software within VR it simply will not be the environment we need, especially in complex software packages such as flight simulators where there are a myriad of different controls and different functions.

 

Personally I am going to wait until a true standard has been adopted to interact within the 3D computing environment that software packages need to make there environment a true 3D experience without the need to jump in and out of it to actually control the computer. It going to take few years still for that to happen. When i does finally happen, and it will, I will be straight down to the shops to buy a VR headset.

 

Until then it doesn't matter what MS or Osobo do, what you will have is a 3D monitor not a 3D environment.

Edited by efanton
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IMHO: Functional Accuracy in a "sim" must be the defining issue of any "sim." And that is where the time and money is best spent. Don't misunderstand me, I love pretty pictures and scenery as much as anyone. Having said that, if my aircraft doesn't "fly" correctly I don't care how pretty the scenery is. I'm not looking for a travelog.

 

As an old, disabled pilot, I'm looking for an accurate simulation of RW time so I can be in the cockpit once again! Anything more, like pretty scenery is just a bonus. ;)

 

Rupert

 

This is most sane post I've read in years. Like Rupert. I'm an old RW pilot that has been washed out on a medical. Flight SIMMING has always been about flight dynamics, navigation, and procedures. All this I-need-more-eye-candy-so-I-can-experience-true-immersion stuff has gotten out of hand...IMNSHO...Doug

Intel 10700K @ 5.0 Ghz, Asus Maxumus XII Hero MB, Noctua NH-U12A Cooler, Corsair Vengence Pro 32GB 3200Mhz, Geforce RTX 2060 Super GPU, Cooler Master HAF 932 Tower, Thermaltake 1000W Toughpower PSU, Windows 10 Professional 64-Bit, and other good stuff.
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Totally agree I fly 2020 but great as it is, it's no use to me without VR (and a microlight) I fly GA and I can work all the buttons in VR on X Plane using the mouse. 2020 will be a World beater when it has it!
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Question: Will Microsoft Flight Simulator also support "Oculus Rift S" or just the "HP Reverb G2" and the "Valve Index" as was announced today (8/1/20) per the following snippet from the FlightSim.Com newsletter? ... Note: I do realize that the audio of the "Oculus Rift S" is not as immersive as the "HP Reverb G2" but, there are ways around that.

 

MSFS Coming To Steam - TrackIR And VR Support Planned

 

HP Reverb G2

 

Created by HP in collaboration with Microsoft and Valve, the upcoming Reverb G2 headset has a bright, high resolution display, excellent tracking, and immersive audio to take maximum advantage of Microsoft Flight Simulator’s incredible visuals and fully 3D soundscape. The HP Reverb G2 will be available later this fall and the VR update will be a free update for all Microsoft Flight Simulator players.

MY FLIGHTSIM RIG: iBuyPower BB953 Gaming Desktop | i7-8700K 3.7GHz | 32GB RAM | 5TB SSD | NVIDIA RTX 2080 8GB | Win10 64-bit | Asus 27'' 165Hz Gaming Monitor | Oculus Rift S | Thrustmaster T16000M FCS Flight Pack (stick, throttle, pedals) | X-Plane 11.50 | MSFS | Condor 2 :pilot:
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