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Adding Flotation to S-92 Model


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I'm almost ready to post a set of FSX/P3Dv4 S-92 aircraft that I have built over the last year. Everything works well except for the flotation. The aircraft crashes about 1 foot above the water. It works perfectly fine on land.

 

Attached below is the list of contact points and an illustration of the points. The yellow points are lights and not relevant to the discussion. The three lowest dark red points correspond to the lowered position of the landing gear. The dark red points above correspond to the float points or the scrape points. The aircraft crashes into the water at a height halfway between the bottom of the aircraft and the landing gear contact points. The crash position does not correspond to any of the points.

 

float points.jpg

 

[contact_points]

0......1....2......3.....4....5....6.....7......8.....9...10...11...12...13...14......15

;gear

point.0=1, 12.7, 0.000, -1.20, 9100, 0, 0.5187,75.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.0, 5.0, 7.0, 120.0, 200.0

point.1=1, -7.7, -5.2, -1.10, 9500, 1, 0.5187, 0.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.3, 5.3, 7.0, 120.0, 200.0

point.2=1, -7.7, 5.2, -1.10, 9500, 2, 0.5187, 0.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.3, 5.3, 7.0, 120.0, 200.0

;bottom

point.3=2, 18.50, -4.70, 1.70, 80000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

point.4=2, 18.50, 4.70, 1.70, 80000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

point.5=2, -9.600, -4.70, 1.70, 80000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

point.6=2, -9.600, 4.70, 1.70, 80000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

point.7=2, -2.000, -7.30, 1.70, 80000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

point.8=2, -2.000, 7.30, 1.70, 160000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

;float

point.9=4, 8.50, -9.5, 2.5, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

point.10=4, 8.50, 9.5, 2.5, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

point.11=4, -5.60, -9.5, 2.5, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

point.12=4, -5.60, 9.5, 2.5, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Note the ridiculously high impact damage thresholds.

 

The CG position is given below:

 

reference_datum_position= 0.000, 0.000, -0.350

empty_weight_CG_position= 0.000, 0.000, 7.000

 

I did have engine and fuel centroid points that corresponded with the approximate crash position. I moved those to the proper position, but it did not have any effect.

 

Inflation or non-inflation of the float bags does not make a difference (not that I expected it to).

 

I have compared the EH-101 and S-92A models in Model Developer and I have not been able to find any significant or relevant differences.

 

Other things I have tried that have not had an effect:

1) Removing all crash boxes from the model compile

2) Substituting the EH-101 AIR file for the S-92A AIR file

3) Increasing the impact damage thresholds to really high numbers.

 

The only thing I have gotten to work was to put the S-92A model file into the EH-101 file. That change actually worked. However, the aircraft was way out of position. I tried to adjust the aircraft position in the aircraft.cfg file but ran back into the crash problem. I could transform the aircraft prior to compiling but I'd rather not, since I would then have to rework 25+ animation sequences.

 

I have run out of other ideas on things to try. Any further ideas?

 

Thanks.

 

David Allan

agnitfom2000

 

PS: I thought about positing this in the aircraft development forum, but that forum doesn't seem to get anything near the readership.

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Forgive my ignorance on this subject as I've never dabbled in this area when tweaking aircraft.

 

Is it possible to copy points from an amphibian aircraft then tweak the those points, or have you tried that kind of thing, just an idea?

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Thanks for the response. I did actually try that. Unfortunately I don't know the rules behind the contact points and how the different types relate to each other. I can make it work by putting it into the aircraft configuration file for the amphibious EH-101, but the model is way out of position. I could translate the model and recompile, but I would have to rework all the animations. Next time I'll make all the contact points work first before doing the animations.
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Your floats are lower than your landing gear and this may be causing the crash.

Here's your gear settings:

point.0=1, 12.7, 0.000, -1.20, 9100, 0, 0.5187,75.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.0, 5.0, 7.0, 120.0, 200.0

point.1=1, -7.7, -5.2, -1.10, 9500, 1, 0.5187, 0.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.3, 5.3, 7.0, 120.0, 200.0

point.2=1, -7.7, 5.2, -1.10, 9500, 2, 0.5187, 0.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.3, 5.3, 7.0, 120.0, 200.0

 

Try setting the floats at the model's center line level, if it sits too low in the water you can lower them by 0.5 at a time till it looks right:

point.9=4, 8.50, -9.5, 0.0, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

point.10=4, 8.50, 9.5, 0.0, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

point.11=4, -5.60, -9.5, 0.0, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

point.12=4, -5.60, 9.5, 0.0, 18800, 0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

 

If the gear is retractable, you'll need to retract it before landing on water.

Edited by tiger1962

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

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Which 'amphibious' EH-101? Is it payware model? I can't seem to find a 'free' one. I can help with floats.

 

Hey! Wait just one minute! Looking at floats I notice you don't have any compression values. So I imagine that is the 'real' (and only) reason it is crashing and nothing else is involved. Reduce the crash for floats to 2500 as that is plenty. Also scrapes to 8000. Try this:

point.9= 4, 8.50, -9.5, 2.5, 2500, 0, 0, 0, 0.1, 4.5, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0

point.10=4, 8.50, 9.5, 2.5, 2500, 0, 0, 0, 0.1, 4.5, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0

point.11=4, -5.60, -9.5, 2.5, 2500, 0, 0, 0, 0.1, 4.5, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0

point.12=4, -5.60, 9.5, 2.5, 2500, 0, 0, 0, 0.1, 4.5, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0

 

//the '4' ('sound type') is water splash. That should do it. Let us know if this fixed it.

Chuck B

Napamule

Edit: But, Butt, Cigerete Butt...When I get this model I am going to tweak it further to where the cnt pts (floats) match the pontoons. OK OK!

Edited by napamule2
i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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Thanks everyone for the responses.

 

By the amphibious EH-101 I was referring to Carl Vokes' FSX Making The EH101 Helicopter Float. He provides contact points for the standard EH-101 provided with FSX. If you search flightsim.com, filter on FSX Helicopters, and search for the word float, his item comes up first in the search.

 

I have tried out both suggestions, and even tried combining them. Unfortunately it still crashes at the same height between the bottom of the gear and the bottom of the fuselage. I've tried both opening up the simulation with the helicopter in a water landing area, and landing the helicopter on the water with the gear retracted. Even the really gentle landing from a 10 foot hover didn't work. It looked like it was working for a few seconds but then crashed.

 

I'm thinking I have something else going on beyond the contact points, but I am not sure what.

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Not sure if this is of any help or not, forgive me if not lol.

I saw a modified Sikorsky S-39 for FSX where the author said he had to change the contact points because the earlier model sank.

So it seems you guys are on the right track looking at the points section.

The aircraft in question was here:

 

http://www.fsx-downloads.com/aircraft/fsx_sikorskys39_fix.htm

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point.7=2, -2.000, -7.30, 1.70, 80000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

point.8=2, -2.000, 7.30, 1.70, 160000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.000000, 0.0, 0.0, 4.0, 0.0, 0.0

 

Why the mismatch?

 

peace

the Beean

WWOD---What Would Opa Do? Farewell, my freind (sp)

 

Never argue with idiots.

They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

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It's irrelvent and makes NO DIFFERENCE for type 2 (scrapes) 'Impact Damage Treshold' if they are the same OR NOT. A crash (into object(s) is a crash. Apparently this are cnt pts for the (bottom) of the wheel wells. You (I?) could land wheels up and not crash if not 600 ft/sec. So not an issue. Will not effect floats either (the subject of this thread). If you are being 'picky' then why did you not note that the 'Sound Type' is '4' (which is 'water splash') and is deffinitely 'wrong' for type 2 cnt pts? Ah? Have a nice day.

Chuck B

Napamule

Edited by napamule2
i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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I've had some partial success. It will float for any set of points where the Z value is less than -0.5 (-1, -2 etc. works). -1 did work, which was higher than the landing gear points. See picture below:

 

float_points2.png

 

Strangely enough, I had the exact same response when I took the model file and put it in the EH-101 directory and used those aircraft.cfg and .air files. I could only lower the aircraft so far before I got the crash again. I'm beginning to think the problem is the compiled model.

 

Beean, I had put in ridiculously high values for the impact threshold to try and eliminate it as a cause. Looking at it again, I'm honestly not sure why it is different. Probably a silly typo. :confused:

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It's irrelvent ...

Was not asking you, it's relevance is for me to decide.

 

If you are being 'picky' then why did you not note that the 'Sound Type' is '4' (which is 'water splash') and is deffinitely 'wrong' for type 2 cnt pts?

According to the FSX SDK...

 

14 (0) Sound Type This integer value will map a point to a type of sound:

0 = Center Gear,

1 = Auxiliary Gear,

2 = Left Gear,

3 = Right Gear,

4 = Fuselage Scrape,

 

There is no reference to "water splash" in the SDK pertaining to contact points.

 

Also, ever heard of Spellchecker?

WWOD---What Would Opa Do? Farewell, my freind (sp)

 

Never argue with idiots.

They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

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Spillchecker? Really? If you understand what I was trying to say then that is all that matters. Yes there is no ref in SDK to '4' being 'splash' sound type. Try them on wheel cnt pts and land and see what sound you get. Splash sound!

 

You (I) come in here to ADD to topic. Trying to be helpful is more important than being 'right'. If you don't agree with what I say-FINE! Just don't get personal because I post and you don't like being corrected. That's YOUR problem not mine. I don't think (no wait: I KNOW) Opa would not like your attitude. How's that?

 

The cnt point are all wrong so a complete edit using the actual model is the only way to go. But the OP doesn't seem to want to discuss it. I sent 2 PM's to him and am getting nowhere. Too bad. I could of had them fixed already if he had emailed (Ziped) me the model and textures. I even told him I needed no credit if I did fix them. I hope he puts the model out soon. I am getting tired of waiting to get at it. I am not bragging, mind you. I just want to help. Have a nice 4th of July. See you next week. Be cool!

Chuck B

Napamule

i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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  • 4 weeks later...

I was out of town for a couple of weeks, but after returning I was able to make the floats work properly. See the picture:

Flotation.jpg

I ended up using Model Converter X to transform the model downwards about 1 1/2 feet. The animations also transformed properly. I did not adjust the float points or scrape points in the Aircraft.cfg. I did adjust the CG and landing gear contact points vertically. Here are the final results. I realize max feet/second speed is higher than realistic.

 

[contact_points]

0.......1......2........3.....4......5...6.....7......8.....9....10....11..12...13...14..15.....16..

;gear

point.0=1, 12.7, 0.00, -4.50, 9500, 0, 0.5187, 75.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.0, 5.0, 0, 120.0, 200.0

point.1=1, -7.7, -5.20, -4.50, 9500, 1, 0.5187, 0.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.3, 5.3, 2, 120.0, 200.0

point.2=1, -7.7, 5.20, -4.50, 9500, 2, 0.5187, 0.0, 0.500, 1.2, 0.6, 5.3, 5.3, 3, 120.0, 200.0

;bottom

point.3=2, 18.50, -4.70, 2.70, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.4=2, 18.50, 4.70, 2.70, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.5=2, -9.600, -4.70, 2.70, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.6=2, -9.600, 4.70, 2.70, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.7=2, -2.000, -7.30, 2.70, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.8=2, -2.000, 7.30, 2.70, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

;float

point.9= 4, 8.50, -9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.100, 1.5, 0.6, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.10=4, 8.50, 9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.100, 1.5, 0.6, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.11=4, -5.60, -9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.100, 1.5, 0.6, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.12=4, -5.60, 9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.0000, 0.0, 0.100, 1.5, 0.6, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

 

It worked OK for both FSX and P3Dv4.

 

Thanks to everyone who helped out with this problem!

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Hey! Great news. Thanks for posting back. So it was the gear crash box (so, a 'model' problem and not a 'cnt pts' problem..right?) that was causing the crash. You figured it out so congrats on that. Years ago a GA amphib had this 'problem' too. I spent days trying to figure it all out. Never did. So it stayed a 'non-amphib' and that was it. Never could get hold of modeler as I suspected the gear crash box area was what had to be changed. THIS time the modeler (you) did do something and it worked. Made my day. Cheers.

Chuck B

Napamule

Edit: Oh, the S-92 looks great. I plan to get it when it comes out. Christmas? New Year? No matter. I can wait. Got other things to do anyway. I had Jessy Corrales's Ferrari Enzo going 405 mph at LeMans4FSX track last night. TOO FAST TO HANDLE!! - hard to keep on the track (but fun). Amphibs? Been there...done that! Ha.

Edited by napamule2
i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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Since you work on cnt pts, and use lights, here is a section I place before the cnt pts section. By using the gear and float values you can locate the locations with lights. Red for gear. Green for floats. If you leave it commented out (with '//' before lines) it will not interfere with regular (Lights) section. When you un-comment the section it will be prevelent (if it comes before the regular (Lights) section in cfg) and the regular lights will not be shown (until you comment cnt pt lights). Hope you can use this.

Chuck B

Napamule

 

//[Lights]

//light.0 = 1, 3.50, -2.99, -2.30, fx_navred, //GEAR

//light.1 = 1, 3.50, 2.99, -2.30, fx_navred,

//light.2 = 1, -6.25, -2.99, -2.35, fx_navred,

//light.3 = 1, -6.25, 2.99, -2.35, fx_navred,

//light.8 = 3, 0.00, 0.00, 4.00, fx_navgre, //Center

////light.4 = 1, 2.28, -2.60, -2.10, fx_navgre, //FLOATS

////light.5 = 1, 2.28, 2.60, -2.10, fx_navgre,

////light.6 = 1, -9.28, -3.80, -2.10, fx_navgre,

////light.7 = 1, -9.28, 3.80, -2.10, fx_navgre,

//

i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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One more thing. If you give steering (40.0 below) you don't need to install type5 (water

rudder) to cnt pts. You steer with rudder when in water and it's always 'ON' (no need to

press any keys). Oh, if you key 'Lake Renegade' in 'All FSX Files' in search you will see

my upload ('update') for it back in 2010. I (Nut Case) love to work on cnt pts!

Chuck B

Napamule

 

Please try the 'below' floats. You MIGHT like the results. You might need to adjust the vertical a bit?

........................................................... //....... //.............. //... //.................................

point.9= 4, 8.50, -9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.5000, 0.0, 0.100, 4.5, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.10=4, 8.50, 9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.5000, 0.0, 0.100, 4.5, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.11=4, -5.60, -9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.5000, 40.0, 0.100, 4.5, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

point.12=4, -5.60, 9.50, -0.50, 8000, 0, 0.5000, 40.0, 0.100, 4.5, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.0

Edited by napamule2
i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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Thanks for the kind comments! I really appreciate the support. As far as publishing the S-92, the floats were the last problem. Except for writing up the documentation and creating the package, everything is ready. I'm hoping to get it out within the next month.

 

David

 

PS: I'll try out the contact points too.

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