No clearance to land via ILS

Hello All!

I'm complete noob in flying anything other than flying myself down the stairs. Recently - I've been given a Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X joy with throttle, so I've decided to give it a chance. WOW! Flying is amazing!

I've purchased FSX on Steam (unfortunately, X-Plane won't run on my PC) for just few bucks and started to fly. My dream is to fly B737-800 or B737-MAX so that's the machine I've chosen. But...

I've set up a IFR flight plan from EPWA (WAW) to GCFV (FUE). Everything was going fine until landing. By default - Approach Control told me to land using Visual Approach, so I've requested to land ILS on runway 1 (there's only one runway on GCFV) and got clearince to ILS land and been instructed to make a circle and expect markers. OK. Got it. ATC told me to descent altitude to 2400 amd maintain. Directed me to course straight on runway, but... never gave me a clearance to land.

I admit - I've never landed any plane before (except this small ones during first lesson missions) and I've several times to land my B737. One time I even did succeeded but ATC told me I was never cleared for landing. So I've repeated the approach for 10 times and never got a landing clearence.

Is it something that I'm missing or is it some kind of big in game?

BTW - please, forgive me for being totally lame on this, but - as I said - I'm just starting my flying experience ;)

If this is the default ATC you are using, then by about 5 miles out on landing tower should tell you that you're cleared to land.

I don't know what that request to make a circle or markers is. That isn't something the default ATC is capable of doing. The ATC in FSX is pretty mundane and not that advanced.

You did follow a flight plan to GCFV? You are in fact using FSX's default ATC? No ATC add-ons?

In ATC options I have no way to report "cleared to land". There's no such option.

I mean that if I'll request ILS approach to runway 1 - Approach Control tells me to make a circle and approach the runway from the other side (I'm flying south, but the ILS always tells me to land S->N).

Yes - I'm following flight plan and the only thing that is not default in my FSX is the plane itself (it's B737-800 Travel Service).

So ATC has given you the Approach to the runway but not permission to land? Are you properly set up for this ILS approach? Proper NAV1 freq, etc? Is your aircraft picking up the localizer and making the turn for the runway? Are you picking up the glideslope and is your aircraft descending towards the runway?

I wonder why Approach Control is giving you a visual approach only?

I mean that if I'll request ILS approach to runway 1 - Approach Control tells me to make a circle and approach the runway from the other side (I'm flying south, but the ILS always tells me to land S->N).

Runway 01 and runway 19 are the same piece of pavement (or grass, or gravel) in opposite directions. Runway 01 has an approximate orientation of 10º, or almost straight north (magnetic, that is). So it's 190º in the opposite direction, or runway 19. Since the ILS is for runway 01, that would explain why they always want you to circle around to make the approach from the south so that you are heading north on the approach. So the ILS is also telling you correctly. The ILS won't work (except as a back course approach, if available) for runway 19.

For future considerations, the runway number is always its approximate magnetic heading to the nearest 10º, dropping the final zero.

In ATC options I have no way to report "cleared to land". There's no such option.

That's correct. Clear to land is an ATC statement, not made by a pilot except in a repeat of an ATC instruction.

I've obviously made a mistake - by the "markers" I've meant "vectors"...

Just so you know, "markers" in aviation parlance generally refers to the marker beacons, Outer, Middle and Inner, for which reception is shown with the blue, amber and white lights on the panel (often in the audio panel).

A suggestion: You are trying to run a marathon when you can barely walk across the room (instrument flying is an advanced subject), so it might be prudent to learn about IFR* and IMC# flight. Several handbooks available from the FAA's website will help a lot in your understanding. The Pilot's Handbook Of Aeronautical Knowledge, the Aeronautical Information Manual, and the Instrument Flying Handbook will get you off to a good start for some of the ground school material you need. Hopefully you'll also complete the sim's built in lessons on flying and on instrument flying.

Switching to the C-172 or something similar (later moving to the Mooney, Baron, etc. before going back to the big iron) might also help you attain better proficiency more quickly. Aviation, even in the sim, isn't something you can pick up quickly -- it takes time, effort, study and practice.

Good luck.

* Instrument Flight Rules

# Instrument Meterological Conditions

So ATC has given you the Approach to the runway but not permission to land? Are you properly set up for this ILS approach? Proper NAV1 freq, etc? Is your aircraft picking up the localizer and making the turn for the runway? Are you picking up the glideslope and is your aircraft descending towards the runway?

Basically : yes.

ATC gives me a visual approach by default. Then I ask for another approach (ILS rway 01) and I'm getting cleared for ILS approach on runway 01. Then, ATC provides me directions to make circle for an ILS approach, gives me landing pattern as left downwind and finally - autopilot takes over (APP light), goes down as desired and finally touches the runway. Of course - then the ATC goes mad as I've landed without a clearance. I have proper NAV1 frequency, runway course, I receive ILS morse code (beeping) and the aircraft is properly heading on runway and finally landing on it. So it obviously works.

But, just to be sure - I've set up another flight in the opposite direction (GCFV -> EPWA) and ATC provided me a course to ILS approach rway 33 as desired. Then - APP mode took over, headed me to Okęcie Airport runway 33, and during the final descending - I've received ATC clearance to land.

The only option I have in mind now is that I didn't use a GPS NAV on my way to GCFV (wanted to see how hard it is to stay on course manually) and maybe the ATC thought that I want Vosual Approach instead of ILS (but can the ten years old flight sim be that wise?) :)

I'll try another approach tommorow, but this time I'll fly all the way on the GPS NAV.

Runway 01 and runway 19 are the same piece of pavement (or grass, or gravel) in opposite directions. Runway 01 has an approximate orientation of 10º, or almost straight north (magnetic, that is). So it's 190º in the opposite direction, or runway 19. Since the ILS is for runway 01, that would explain why they always want you to circle around to make the approach from the south so that you are heading north on the approach. So the ILS is also telling you correctly. The ILS won't work (except as a back course approach, if available) for runway 19.

 

For future considerations, the runway number is always its approximate magnetic heading to the nearest 10º, dropping the final zero.

I didn't know that, but it makes sense ;)

Just so you know, "markers" in aviation parlance generally refers to the marker beacons, Outer, Middle and Inner, for which reception is shown with the blue, amber and white lights on the panel (often in the audio panel).

That I knew, but made a mistake. This nomenclature is sth new for me, so it will take some time until I'll learn it properly.

A suggestion: You are trying to run a marathon when you can barely walk across the room (instrument flying is an advanced subject), so it might be prudent to learn about IFR* and IMC# flight. Several handbooks available from the FAA's website will help a lot in your understanding. The Pilot's Handbook Of Aeronautical Knowledge, the Aeronautical Information Manual, and the Instrument Flying Handbook will get you off to a good start for some of the ground school material you need. Hopefully you'll also complete the sim's built in lessons on flying and on instrument flying.

 

Switching to the C-172 or something similar (later moving to the Mooney, Baron, etc. before going back to the big iron) might also help you attain better proficiency more quickly. Aviation, even in the sim, isn't something you can pick up quickly -- it takes time, effort, study and practice.

 

Good luck.

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* Instrument Flight Rules

# Instrument Meterological Conditions

Good suggestion is always welcome :) I made some learning missions (first 9), but I quickly realised that it's a sim so I can crash how many times I wan't ;) The reason I choose B737 is that I fly 800 or MAX quite often from Poland to Canary Islands and back and (let's be honest) - I'm afraid of flying, so I want to get to know what this plane can handle, how is it behaving during some hard wather condition etc. And just in case - so I can fly it if all of the crew will be unavailable :D It simply calms me down a bit ;)

Regardless of the above - I've already stared to read IFR manuals (including the materials from FAA's site) and I'll check IMC manuals as well :) Thank you very much :)

As for the flying lessons - I won't make any promise, but I'll try to complete the ones regarding instruments flying... and landing as well, as I completely don't know how to land without ILS (I've done some lessons on this extra-light-flying-something). It's just the beggining ;)

I'll keep you posted with this GCFV ILS approach clearance issue.

I didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to point out you can fly an approach for a different runway than the one ATC wants you to land on. So in this case if ATC wants you to land on runway 19, you can ask for approval to fly ILS runway 1 approach, then circle to land on runway 19. This means you use the ILS to get yourself low enough that you can see the runway, then you break out of the approach and manually fly around and land on the other runway. This can be useful when visibility is low enough that the only way to get low enough to see the runway is to fly the instrument approach, but then once you can see the runway you switch to visual and land on a different runway.

What did I mean by "the only way to get low enough"? There are usually published minimum altitudes that you can't descend below unless you can see the runway. If you're on a precision approach like ILS, the minimums are very low, so there's a good chance that will get you within sight of the runway when (if there's bad weather) flying other types of approaches will not because their minimums are higher.

ATC can also clear for a side-step approach. Same idea, say they want you to land on runway 1R, but you want to use the ILS for runway 1L (say if 1R doesn't have ILS), then during the ILS approach once you have visual contact you side-step and land on 1R.

The point being that the approach you fly, and the runway you land on, are separate things. You can also ask ATC for a different runway than the one they assigned. So for example you can ask ATC to fly ILS runway 1 and also, separately you can ask to land on runway 1 as well. Be sure to scan all the options in the ATC menu to see what's possible.

As to why you didn't get landing clearance, if ATC is still expecting you to circle and land runway 19, then they might not clear you until you're abeam runway 19 threshold, which will not happen if you landed on runway 1.

As to why you didn't get landing clearance, if ATC is still expecting you to circle and land runway 19, then they might not clear you until you're abeam runway 19 threshold, which will not happen if you landed on runway 1.

As I've wrote in previous posts - ATC tells me to land runway 19, straight. But I don't want to, so I'm asking ATC for a different approach: ILS to runway 01. ATC gives me a clearance for circle and ILS approach to runway 01. But it doesn't give me only the final clearance to land. There's not much choice as for the runways (only one) so I'm preety sure I'm landing on the correct one :)

If ATC tells ou to land on RW19 it is because the wind is coming from the south.

You will then HAVE to land on RW19.

If you ask "ILS RW 01 Approach" (Notice, you ask for a specific APPROACH, (and not fr a specific landing!!! ))

then you will have to:

fly the approach to RW01 following the ILS signal,

then, when you can see the airport you turn right,

you then fly half a circkle,

anti-clockwise,

keeping the runway and airport in sight.

After flying half a circle you will end up in front of runway 19,

safely, because you were able to see the airport in the turn,

and because of that you knew where the ground obstacles.

When you are almost in front of RW19 you,

make a left turn,

and land on RW19.

An approach like that is called a circling approach.

It is used when the weather is cloudy.

When there are clouds above 2000ft, but not below that, it is difficult to approach 19 "just like that" because you simply cannot see the airport from 4300 ft high when you are in the clouds.

You can however follow the ILS down.

You follow the ILS untill you see the airport,

you "circle" around,

and land on the ACTIVE runway 19 anyway.

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Now if you just want to practice landing on 01, then, in FSX, you can change the wind direction to a wind coming from the North.

Approach will then offer you landing on RW01 right away,

it will also tell you to contact the tower when you are established on approach.

Tower will then be the one to give you landing clearence once you have contacted them.

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Happy Flights!:)

il.

(Notice, you ask for a specific APPROACH, (and not fr a specific landing!!! ))

WOW. Now it's fully clear to me :) In the meantime - I've read more about landing techniques and thanks to your post - I now fully understand what is left/right downwind and circling :)

The only odd thing is that I use a 'real-time weather' and I'm landing the same time I did for real when the Tower directed the Pilot to RW01 and we've landed using ILS. But OK - it's just a simulation so it may not be perfect :)

Current I ain't go my joystick with me so I won't event try to do the landing using a keyboard :D I'll give it a try for sure as soon as I'll get back home :)

Thank you guys - you're awsome!

Glad the circling approach procedure is clear now.:D

if you want a straight-in Ils Landing on Rw 01 you will need a wind from the north.

You can set up a wind direction in the

weather-->custom weather

menu.

Okay,

What I was doing wrong is that I let the autopilot to take over and head to ILS RW01. This time - I did what ATC told me and held the course until ATC told me to change to 010, then 270 and finally - I did received a clearence to land RW19.

Landing without ILS isn't something that I can do with anything bigger than Cessna, but I'm learning ;)

Thank you guys for all the advices once again! It's amazing how helpful you are :)

Thanks for the advice :)

I've made a training mission for landing and now I've successfully landed B737 few times in a row ;) Maybe it wasn't too preety, but finally - everyone is alive :D I'll keep trying, learning and studying materials.

BTW - it turned out that there are few real B737 landing recorded and shared over YT and they were the most helpful to learn how to land this bird :)

Thank you All once again!

One common misconception is that you land an airplane. In reality, in light aircraft, you descend until you're about a foot off the ground (looking well down the runway, not close to you), then keep it there with power at idle ("Don't let it touch, don't let it touch") -- soon you won't be able to keep it off the ground and it'll touch, nose high (this latter part is called the flare). My first flight instructor (with his typical humor) told me to keep it that one foot off the ground as I taxi to parking, then pull it down the last foot with the tiedown ropes, or in other words, keep flying the aircraft until you're parked.

In the jets (so I'm told, since I don't fly real ones), the flare isn't quite as complete, letting the aircraft touch gently with a little descent still occurring. Lots of people have problems by trying to "land" the aircraft, that is, make it touch down.

Just a little different way of looking at it, for many folks.

I'm preety aware of differences between light aircraft landing and the jets :)

I ain't got no problem with landing light aircrafts exactly as you've desribed.

I also have watched a lot of movies from real jet's cockpits and tried to land using the same techniques, but FSX isn't too good for that (e.g. I've noticed that many runways didn't get PAPI lights even thou they are in real word and it's hard for me to asses the height). Also - I've seen that many pilots are waving the yoke forward and back just before thouch down, but FSX with my joystick (Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X) is reacting very gustily. I mean e.g. this movie (8 min 20 sec):

Or here (3 min 06 sec):

Some of this you probably know, but some you probably don't. In any case, bear with me as I remind of some things you know.

many pilots are waving the yoke forward and back just before thouch down,

There's a huge difference in the sensitivity of the controls in the aircraft in that video vs your joystick, and in the inertia of the aircraft (the sim doesn't do this perfectly). In that video, he's likely correcting for turbulence, too, to make such large and frequent changes, even though they're tiny in relation to the aircraft. Don't look at the control in the video, rather look at what the aircraft appears to be doing, that is, appearing steady coming down final. It's steady, in spite of the appearance of the yoke, because the pilot is using his seat of the pants feel (and what he sees out the windshield) to make very tiny corrections, in terms of the aircraft, then back to the previous position (that is, taking out the correction before it has too much effect). He's seeing and feeling things that you cannot in the sim, due to its limitations. I do something a little like that with my Thrustmaster Warthhog (yes, even in a Cub, or a real Cub for that matter), but it's fingers (not hand with full grip) lightly touching the stick AND it's only in response to something I actually see (and feel in the RW Cub). It's not just moving things to hope it comes out right.

Note, too, that the pilot in that video (as must all real world pilots) has learned what to anticipate from various actions (lots of practice here) to add to what he sees and feels, thus the immediate taking out of the correction, even before it has had its full effect.

Also, don't think about control MOVEMENT, rather think about the change of control PRESSURES against your hand or fingers, correlated with what you see out the windshield. Thinking about control movement leads to large over corrections. This is something I usually have to point out to my students, since it doesn't seem to be intuitive.

Assessing the height: You're probably looking ahead too close to the aircraft. You should be, just before or just as the flare starts, looking at the far end of the runway, which allows you to see tiny height variations*, while noting the pitch of the aircraft (looking outside, not at the gauges). During the flare, while you are adding back pressure, the aircraft is slowing. Note in the 172 that as you slow, you have to increase, not only the back pressure, but the rate of adding back pressure as time goes on, because the wing needs that higher angle of attack to maintain lift to keep you off the ground^#. Of course that's just as true in the jet. I bring this up, not because you may not know it, but to remind you of what is happening so that you can think about it more clearly. Also, learn to use your peripheral vision to help you keep the aircraft straight and to help you judge exactly what it's doing.

* Think of your line of sight as a lever arm, so looking immediately in front of the aircraft you have a short "lever arm" while looking down the runway gives you a long one, thus giving you more apparent "movement" to see and to be able to judge.

^# The slower you go the less lift at a given angle of attack, thus it must increase as you slow to maintain altitude.

Wow! I'm preety amazed with your explanation Larry :) I was expecting that the movements I've spoke earlier were soke corrections but I didn't even thought that the aircraft can have such a hudge inertia in reaction for the yoke movements...

Anyways - I'm aware that I can't feel what really happening with the aircraft during the fly nor landing. And I won't spend large cash on real simulation chair as... I'm collecting money for real-life pilot training. And here, in Poland - it's awfully expensive :(

That's why I wanted to start with something what's not a economic suiscide and learn the basics on not-so-real plane in sim. And I must admitt that as for the begginner - FSX shows e.g. the turbulences quite well. Whole machine starts to shake or rides up and down etc. The only thing missing is the real feel in my lower part of my back so I'd really know what's going on. But hey! I've spent only a few bucks on the sim so let's not be greedy :)

Thank you and best regards.

P.s. Today I've been training a visual approach using PAPI lights and yay - I didn't crash the aircraft each time I've tried! Of course VFR landing, not ILS :)

FSX shows e.g. the turbulences quite well.

It does, indeed, but it's not very realistic.

I'm collecting money for real-life pilot training.

Keep in mind a couple of things. Learning in the sim without an instructor (CFI) to guide you leaves room for you to learn to do some things wrong, giving you some bad habits to break when you get into real aircraft, so keep that in mind. Oh, you'll learn a lot (and already have learned some things) in the sim, but bad habits are easy to form and hard to get rid of. So, for example, you should mostly fly looking out the windows, with only an occasional momentary glance at the panel, then right back outside, except when you are specifically flying on instruments, and you should have visual flight down pretty well before doing much of that.

Also, when you do start real life training, the more frequently you can fly, the better, with at least three lessons a week being what I'd call the minimum frequency to keep your total costs down somewhat, since the more often you fly, the less time of each lesson you must spend reviewing previous lessons (there's always some amount of review).

Another thing, when you get into real aircraft, is to spend some time after each flight (that evening at home is fine) sitting in your easy chair, with your eyes closed and your hands and feet mentally on the controls and relive that day's flight lesson(s), perhaps a couple of times. Don't do this in the sim, just in your mind. Since you are trying to get your mind to learn to properly control your muscles, this will help to reinforce what you've gone through that day. Hopefully you'll even "hear" your CFI talking to you at times (I did).

Flying by looking out the windows does not work well in the sim. That's because you don't feel the pitch of the aircraft like you do in real life. Plus in the sim you cant see the pitch well by looking outside.

In the sim you keep an eye on pitch by regular glances on the attitude indicator.

Also a good idea to keep an eye on that in real life. In real life motion can be confusing. You can "feel" the plane is climbing, while it is actually dropping like a stone.

If you google:

air crash spatial disorientation

you will find several crashes in which it played an important sold in the crash.

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one aircraft in fsx that does allow flying almost without looking at instruments is the Ultralight. That's a very nice practice plane. Flying that for a few weeks will give you a great feel for speed, climb, power and pitch. It is a "touchy" plane. Small changes in thrust and pitch have a large effect. So great for practicing carefull handling.

Try exercises in it like: "if I only increase thrust, and not pitch, and just let it go, what happens to speed and altitude, and, where do I end up".

For fine control can make small changes to pitch in the ultralight too by using elevator trim. (not in real life of course).

Other test: if I change pitch (trim) and let things go/happen, what happens to speed and altitude.".

Those detailed tests are for later though. First just hand-fly it for a few weeks. No setting up of flights. Just press "fly now".

When the flight has loaded you will find yourself flying at a few thousand feet over some islands. Teach yourself to control it. Learn to land at the airports there. Learn to take off. Learn the safe speeds. Learn to land off-airport.

The ultralight is great for getting a feel for and understanding of aerodynamics. Much better then any other fsx aircraft.

Flying by looking out the windows does not work well in the sim. That's because you don't feel the pitch of the aircraft like you do in real life.

I completely disagree with you on this. I'll grant you that your precision is reduced over that in real aircraft, but an occasional glance at airspeed and an occasional glance at the altimeter will take care of that (usually do that IRL too). I never need the attitude indicator for that in the sim, any more than in real life.

In practicing for real flight training, I'd not go with the ultralight -- too different for training purposes. The "exercises" you list can be done in a more conventional aircraft, too, and will teach someone a few things. In fact, using ONLY ONE control at a time, then letting the aircraft stabilize will teach you quite a bit, keeping in mind that the throttle is a control, just as much as stick and rudder.

Flying by looking out the windows does not work well in the sim. That's because you don't feel the pitch of the aircraft like you do in real life. Plus in the sim you cant see the pitch well by looking outside.

Here I can't agree with you - FSX is handling altitude changes as well as pitch or drift quite well (of course - as far as it can be simulated). It's done by the camera (center of "pilot's" view) movement the opposite way as the aircraft movement. I don't use a virtual cockpit view which sticks always the same point. So if eg. the altitude is decreasing - te camera moves up so I can virtually feel that something is going on. This applies to all kind of aircrafts I've flew (from ultralight to AN225-100).

In Sim it's even harder to play with A/P setting knobs when the aircraft is changing course or altitude than in real life - it caused by the camera movement, so the knob is changing its relative position to the mouse so clicking + or - is quite hard to be done ;)

Keep in mind a couple of things. Learning in the sim without an instructor (CFI) to guide you leaves room for you to learn to do some things wrong, giving you some bad habits to break when you get into real aircraft, so keep that in mind.

Oh, I totally get you. I alredy have some bad habits and I'm looking for some sources on how it should be done properly... Eg. when is the moment to engage a A/P? I feel like I'm often doing it too early, so either it simply doesn't work, or the plane starts to climb too fast and finally - it stalls.

Are you sure??

Here are two shots from the 747 cockpit.

Taklen at the same point in flight. Just afte takeoff, climbing through 9000 ft. (not even that high for a 747.)

Picture 1.

2D view.

Tell me the pitch by looking outside...

Doesn't really work. It's all blue.

---------------

Picture 2.

VC view.

At least you can see the horizon. So you can sort of estimate pitch. But can you see if the pitch is 5 degrees up, or a dangerous 15 degree? No, not really.

And can you tell from the view through the window if the plane is climbing or descending?

-No, not really. The plane could be in a full stall, an could be falling to earth with engines at full thrust.

------------------------

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Here's twoo more.

One is at 10.000, the other at 20.000

Can you tell the altitude from where the horizon is in the windscreen? (I can't, it's the same in both images.)

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Where you see the horizon in the windscreen is the result of both pitch and altitude. Therefore you will never be able to guess pitch from what you see. You will need to know altitude too. And even then it would be only an estimation.

So keep checking those instruments.