Tokyo Drift In The Air?

So I have been trying to stick the landings and have used a number of aircraft in fsx. I have noticed with all of them that even with no crosswind the plane (cessna 172 is the one I am currently using) will "drift" in the air as I attempt to line up with the runway. Basically I turn left or right to line up and roll the wings level when I am on centerline. BUT even after rolling level the plane wants to drift sideways as though I never rolled out of the bank. It does this with or without rudder.

 

What am I missing? It's preventing me from keeping a straight line to the runway and causes me to almost NEVER land centerline. Is this common? Am I in need of some kind of 6th sense to know when to roll out so that I can end up drifting to the right spot after?

It's called flying and needs lots and lots of practice.

It's called momentum. Ask your physics teacher.:D

I have noticed with all of them that even with no crosswind the plane (cessna 172 is the one I am currently using) will "drift" in the air as I attempt to line up with the runway.

Is this at one site (implied by Tokyo), or everywhere? Does it eventually go straight, just taking a while? If so, make your base leg further out (quite a bit, probably) to give yourself more time to go straight. It would be better to get a corrected model, since there are, unfortunately, bugs in most (all?) default aircraft and many (most?) add-ons that will do this. This problem also means that in steep turns, or more normal turns continued in circles, you'll keep raising the nose to very unnatural attitudes (look from the locked spot view) and start to descend no matter what you do, in ANY aircraft with this problem, even the most powerful fighters. Some are worse than others.

 

It's called flying and needs lots and lots of practice.

What he's describing is NOT like real flying -- it's a flight model design problem (real flying is MUCH easier), and has been around at least since FS98. Get in the locked spot view at six o'clock and make turns in the default C-172 or C-182 (depending on your version), perhaps around 500 AGL and in the slower speed regime (around approach speed works well), and watch this unnatural sliding sideways.

 

Because this is present in the default aircraft, it is also present in most add-on aircraft, presumably because the developer(s) based their flight models on the default models.

 

It's called momentum. Ask your physics teacher.

Not so, not the way I've seen it in FS aircraft. Real physics wouldn't allow this behavior, and real aircraft don't do it. A friend and I call it "slip/skid" (a misnomer, really) and it can be corrected in the flight model, by playing with yaw moments and side forces (section 1101 of .air file), using Air Ed or similar. An aircraft in NO WIND CONDITIONS should never slide sideways over the ground if it is flying coordinated (ball in the center). The diversion of lift in a bank (requiring back pressure to maintain altitude) is what causes an aircraft to turn, with the vertical fin acting like the arrow's fletching to keep the aircraft properly aligned (I know most of you know this, but it MUST be considered here), so an aircraft should not be sliding sideways once the wings are level (shouldn't slide in a turn, either, if coordinated, just follow an arc). This flight model problem is one of the reasons that real life flying is, in many ways, easier than the sim.

 

A friend (CFII, over 10,000 hours IRL) has spent countless hours correcting this (and other problems) in various flight models (generally in the aircraft he and I fly together), such that all our commonly used aircraft fly with as much natural control (that is, not having to constantly think about how to compensate for this vs. what we do in real aircraft) as a real aircraft does, giving a much more natural feel to the aircraft in the sim. So I know that it's a real problem as the OP has posted, not something mimicking the real thing, and the problem is fixable, making the sim more natural to fly.

 

All too many people (I've brought this up occasionally over the last 20 years or so) seem to not understand the problem, or that it IS a problem, even though REAL aircraft don't do this.

Hi, Larry! Yep, I agree with everything you said. Would any payware aircraft like the A2A C-172 account for these design flaws? If not, and the OP is left with the default or freeware 3rd party addons, I stand by my statement of lots of landing practice to overcome the flaws.

So I have been trying to stick the landings and have used a number of aircraft in fsx. I have noticed with all of them that even with no crosswind the plane (cessna 172 is the one I am currently using) will "drift" in the air as I attempt to line up with the runway. Basically I turn left or right to line up and roll the wings level when I am on centerline. BUT even after rolling level the plane wants to drift sideways as though I never rolled out of the bank. It does this with or without rudder.

 

What am I missing? It's preventing me from keeping a straight line to the runway and causes me to almost NEVER land centerline. Is this common? Am I in need of some kind of 6th sense to know when to roll out so that I can end up drifting to the right spot after?

 

Drift is endemic with aircraft operating in air, which moves... What you need to learn is the sight picture to compensate for wind drift. It can be done with two common techniques: Wing down and Crab.

Crab can further be broken into two techniques: Sideslip and Forward Slip.

 

Others are correct it's called `practice`!

Both covered in the sims Learning Center...

Hi, Larry! Yep, I agree with everything you said. Would any payware aircraft like the A2A C-172 account for these design flaws? If not, and the OP is left with the default or freeware 3rd party addons, I stand by my statement of lots of landing practice to overcome the flaws.

Since that's not an aircraft I've ever tried, I can't answer that, Zippy. I'm not disagreeing about the needed practice, just about "It's called flying..."

Thanks Larry, I had a feeling it wasn't natural in real flight. It is an event that happens everywhere. For some reason everyone wants to glance over it and just give the old crosswind excuse even if there ARE NO CROSSWINDS! And yes, even with the turn coordinated it still does this.

 

What gets me about it the most is that when landing and making slight adjustments to stay in line with the runway it makes it almost impossible to do. I end up drifting too far and then I have to correct again only to drift the other way.

 

Unfortunately real life flying isn't in the cards for me. So I try to make the sim as realistic as possible. Is there any models you know of that have this issue corrected? I'm not familiar with Air Ed.

The OP obviously (?) has an equiptment problem. Not a flying problem. His 'drift' is due to his rudder being out of calibration. Just a guess, of course, but still. No 'regimen' will correct that.

Chuck B

Napamule

Chuck, there actually is a design problem with default aircraft (and many add-ons derived from them). It's not rudder "out of calibration." You get this effect even with auto-coordination, and it's been around, as I said above, at least since FS98. Try my little exercise I suggested above with a default aircraft, and maybe you can see it. It's real, and it's a flight model problem, not rudder calibration. Applied (or "uncalibrated") rudder would give a different effect from what the OP and I are describing.

Chuck, there actually is a design problem with default aircraft (and many add-ons derived from them). It's not rudder "out of calibration." You get this effect even with auto-coordination, and it's been around, as I said above, at least since FS98. Try my little exercise I suggested above with a default aircraft, and maybe you can see it. It's real, and it's a flight model problem, not rudder calibration. Applied (or "uncalibrated") rudder would give a different effect from what the OP and I are describing.

 

I downloaded Air Ed. I am curious as to if you can provide me with information on what settings you used on different aircraft to fix the issue?

The changes needed are different for each aircraft, and are found by trial and error. And it was my friend, not me, who did the experimenting and made the changes, but in section 1101 (Primary Aerodynamic) on the FSX C-172:

 

Cy_dr was 410, now 100

Cy_beta - Sideslip was -819, now -1400

Cn_R - Yaw rate was -370, now -1000

Cn_dr - Rudder (control) was 112, now 200

Cn_beta - Sideslip was 140, now 300

Cm_de - Elevator (control) was -1600, now -1800

Cmo was was -81, now -140

Cl_P Roll Rate (damping) was -2100, now -1200

Cl_da - Aileron (control) was -466, now -500

 

Be SURE to SAVE a copy of the original .air file before starting any changes. A few of the changes above likely don't have anything to do with the "slip/skid" problem, but contribute in other ways to better handling. Note that he did reduce adverse yaw somewhat, too, since we can't use "seat-of-the-pants" feel in the sim, thus reducing the attention needed to fly the aircraft, bringing the sim experience a tad closer to "real."

 

He may have made some changes in the aircraft.cfg file, too, but if so I haven't found them. Be aware that these values probably won't work for any other aircraft, but they may give you a hint if you wish to spend the time and effort experimenting. I don't know whether these changes do much for P3D or not, since there are some changes to "aerodynamics" in that sim, compared to FSX.

I downloaded Air Ed. I am curious as to if you can provide me with information on what settings you used on different aircraft to fix the issue?

 

You can use your advanced knowledge of aerodynamics to make the changes, or hit'n'hope. Your choice...

The changes needed are different for each aircraft, and are found by trial and error. And it was my friend, not me, who did the experimenting and made the changes, but in section 1101 (Primary Aerodynamic) on the FSX C-172:

 

Cy_dr was 410, now 100

Cy_beta - Sideslip was -819, now -1400

Cn_R - Yaw rate was -370, now -1000

Cn_dr - Rudder (control) was 112, now 200

Cn_beta - Sideslip was 140, now 300

Cm_de - Elevator (control) was -1600, now -1800

Cmo was was -81, now -140

Cl_P Roll Rate (damping) was -2100, now -1200

Cl_da - Aileron (control) was -466, now -500

 

Be SURE to SAVE a copy of the original .air file before starting any changes. A few of the changes above likely don't have anything to do with the "slip/skid" problem, but contribute in other ways to better handling. Note that he did reduce adverse yaw somewhat, too, since we can't use "seat-of-the-pants" feel in the sim, thus reducing the attention needed to fly the aircraft, bringing the sim experience a tad closer to "real."

 

He may have made some changes in the aircraft.cfg file, too, but if so I haven't found them. Be aware that these values probably won't work for any other aircraft, but they may give you a hint if you wish to spend the time and effort experimenting. I don't know whether these changes do much for P3D or not, since there are some changes to "aerodynamics" in that sim, compared to FSX.

 

MUCH better! It even fixed another problem I was noticing with the aircraft not turning until completely into the bank with ailerons back to center. It now turns while in the banking process.

Glad it worked well for you.