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Thread: Circle to land questions

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    I took a look at the approach chart for the ILS runway 06 at KTEB.. and didn't feel too good about breaking out to land on runway 01 at about TORBY.

    So the question here is.. would you deal with a direct gusty 15 knot crosswind for runway 06 or swing it right and left to get into runway 01 at KTEB? My answer is that my decision depends on the type of aircraft, approach speed, it's crosswind limit and runway condition.

    On a side note, I think the investigation into this incident is still going on? There's some news in the media that the F/O was not even supposed/allowed to be the PF on this flight..

  2. #22
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    Default Circle to land questions

    Hi Rohan,

    Since Teterboro is a controlled field - you really don’t get a choice on which runway you want to land on - the tower is going to tell you where to land... Was it only a 15 knot crosswind that day ? That doesn’t sound too bad (I’ve landed a C172 with gust over 20 with a direct crosswind) but into the wind makes it much easier so I’m sure that’s why the tower switched...

    As Bean mentioned many thousands of safe landings over many years have been conducted without incident - so it’s safe to perform this landing - but all it takes is a moments inattention or distraction as one of the links of the accident chain to create a mishap... Perhaps they got complacent - perhaps they were discussing the weekend - perhaps they weren’t well rested - perhaps there was some other distraction in the cockpit - at this point we don’t know... As PIC you should be able to recognize that a more difficult approach contains more risk - so you know to be on your “A Game” while flying it...

    My assumption - the winds plus the approach just worked together to defeat the pilot - a hard bank to correct for an overshoot - drastically raises the stall speed - and the pilot just lost track of his airspeed... A stall with a high bank angle bites hard and could easily develop into a spin... There’s video footage of the impact and the Lear was nose down almost completely vertical - classic stall/spin scenario...


    Just like this:
    https://youtu.be/jrngajyaPx4


    Regards,
    Scott


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by scottb613; 12-13-2018 at 10:31 AM.

  3. #23
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    Since Teterboro is a controlled field - you really don’t get a choice on which runway you want to land on - the tower is going to tell you where to land...
    Actually, you can still ask for a different runway at a controlled field, though traffic might preclude them from granting your request.

    I’ve landed a C172 with gust over 20 with a direct crosswind
    I've done that in Cessnas, Cubs and more, but it does take considerable attention -- no daydreaming -- and good technique, including no room for slop in aircraft handling.

    In a nutshell, about circling to land, it has less margin for error than a normal landing approach, since it is done at a lower altitude and usually with poor visibility, and that means a pilot is more likely to make a mistake, but given proper attention and care from the pilot, AND a willingness to go around if he loses sight of the airport, these approaches have certainly been a useful way to get in to a field over the years, and safety must not be TOO much of a problem since the FAA still allows/publishes these approaches.

    BUT, that reduced margin for error does mean the approach is somewhat more hazardous than other types. HOW hazardous, depends on the exact set of circumstances, including aircraft type, weather, pilot proficiency and mental sharpness at the moment, and other factors.

    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lnuss View Post
    Actually, you can still ask for a different runway at a controlled field, though traffic might preclude them from granting your request.
    Hi Larry,

    Concur - I've done it as well... I kind of meant that in the context of Teterboro - I should have been more clear... Teterboro - home of the massive Conga Line - both into and out of - the airport... They're not known to be the most accommodating airport in the world but they do have traffic volumes unheard of at most other Delta's...

    Here's an amusing video by a Corporate Pilot - he did a nice job but it also seems to cast Teterboro in less than a flattering light... LOL - frustration probably drove him to produce the video...

    https://youtu.be/mzM3aaypEYo

    Regards,
    Scott
    Last edited by scottb613; 12-13-2018 at 02:31 PM.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scottb613 View Post
    Hi Rohan,

    Since Teterboro is a controlled field - you really don’t get a choice on which runway you want to land on - the tower is going to tell you where to land... Was it only a 15 knot crosswind that day ? That doesn’t sound too bad (I’ve landed a C172 with gust over 20 with a direct crosswind) but into the wind makes it much easier so I’m sure that’s why the tower switched...
    Correct, Scott. In a Lear, I'd feel comfy dealing with a 15 knot crosswind instead of sharp turns at low altitude in landing configuration.

    In small Cessna, I'd take advantage of it's maneuverability and opt to circle to land. A direct 15 knot crosswind with 32 knot gusts to be dealt with a small Cessna is harrowing for me. But that's just me being me. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by scottb613 View Post
    My assumption - the winds plus the approach just worked together to defeat the pilot - a hard bank to correct for an overshoot - drastically raises the stall speed - and the pilot just lost track of his airspeed... A stall with a high bank angle bites hard and could easily develop into a spin... There’s video footage of the impact and the Lear was nose down almost completely vertical - classic stall/spin scenario...
    Sounds like that, yes. The F/O was not yet qualified to be the PF on the flight. He handed off controls to the Capt. when things were starting to get out of hand. Looks like they failed to gain airspeed and stalled. Some reports suggest the Captain's voice in the last 1 minute sounded very strained. Sounds of strained breathing were also reported.

    Check out this report. I haven't read it in detail yet but prima-facie looks to be an in depth report that has the little details simmers and real pilots would like to know.

    https://www.flyingmag.com/teterboro-...qualifications

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