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TDS 787 - where am I going wrong?


ryanspringer2294

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Hi there,

 

I have already asked about this a couple of times in other places, but it has been a while.

 

I can not land the TDS 787 (all variants) properly. No matter how slow I am going, as soon as the back wheels touch the runway, the nose slams down. I just can NOT flare this aircraft. This has been going on for months now, and it is starting to do my head in.

 

So far I have tried:

 

• Landing slower,

• Setting trim

• Setting flaps

• Adjusting the CG

 

A side note, I have not seen anyone else have to make any adjustments, or even anyone else with this problem, which makes me think I am doing something wrong. So I also wonder about going back to basics, can someone walk me through, step by step, how to land this particular aircraft, because I must be going wrong somewhere.

 

I don’t want this thread to disappear until I have completely fixed this.

 

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Good luck on your quest. When this aircraft first came out I tried it and was only successful with one landing. After that it gave a "crash" when the main-mounts touched down. Into the trashcan it went.

Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer!  ✈️

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Good luck on your quest. When this aircraft first came out I tried it and was only successful with one landing. After that it gave a "crash" when the main-mounts touched down. Into the trashcan it went.

 

Thanks, this is probably the best freeware 787 out there, so I refuse to give up on this problem.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Thanks, this is probably the best freeware 787 out there, so I refuse to give up on this problem.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

No, Ryan, don't give up just yet. I use FSX and I was surprised when you said you were having problems with the 787. I had the same results with the 777 on landings, I would flare and like you described, felt like a runaway elevator, nose wheel quickly falling to the runway.

 

I did some changing of the way I land the larger jetliners and surprisingly, the 777 seems almost normal now. I land all the "big boys" ILS (actually some would call my method a non-precision approach, more accurately called a localizer only approach). I follow the glide scope down and at 600' AGL I will disengage the A/P and the APPR, and then at 500' disengage the AT. This combination seems to set up a nice landing attitude with the larger jetliners. Forgot to mention, about 150KIAS, 30* flaps. I ride this all the way to just above the runway and click the F1 to idle back the engines. No flare what-so-ever, let the back wheels hit the runway and if needed, lightly control the drop with the yoke. I had a few aircraft that the nose was playing hard to get in coming down, and then i just tapped on the brakes once and down it comes! Use your outside views as the aircraft is approaching the runway and you will see what i am talking about! Try this and see if it doesn't work out better for you!

 

I can sense that you are at wits end with this aircraft and I was the same way with the 777. Let me know how you make out! Everyone does things differently, if my method doesn't work, someone else will come along and offer their way of doing it!

 

Good luck! Rick :cool:

Edited by Downwind66
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No, Ryan, don't give up just yet. I use FSX and I was surprised when you said you were having problems with the 787. I had the same results with the 777 on landings, I would flare and like you described, felt like a runaway elevator, nose wheel quickly falling to the runway.

 

I did some changing of the way I land the larger jetliners and surprisingly, the 777 seems almost normal now. I land all the "big boys" ILS (actually some would call my method a non-precision approach, more accurately called a localizer only approach). I follow the glide scope down and at 600' AGL I will disengage the A/P and the APPR, and then at 500' disengage the AT. This combination seems to set up a nice landing attitude with the larger jetliners. Forgot to mention, about 150KIAS, 30* flaps. I ride this all the way to just above the runway and click the F1 to idle back the engines. No flare what-so-ever, let the back wheels hit the runway and if needed, lightly control the drop with the yoke. I had a few aircraft that the nose was playing hard to get in coming down, and then i just tapped on the brakes once and down it comes! Use your outside views as the aircraft is approaching the runway and you will see what i am talking about! Try this and see if it doesn't work out better for you!

 

I can sense that you are at wits end with this aircraft and I was the same way with the 777. Let me know how you make out! Everyone does things differently, if my method doesn't work, someone else will come along and offer their way of doing it!

 

Good luck! Rick :cool:

 

Unfortunately, no luck with this method, I still slammed down. :(

 

So now I am back to square one.

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Hi ryanspringer 2294,

 

I agree with rick, don't giveup, I found this aircraft looked great, flew and landed well on first time attempt. Only thing which might make a difference are your "realism sliders" difficulty, I have mine set to max right, but when I'm learning a new aircraft I put them in the middle or more left so the aircraft is easier to manage.

 

I didn't have this TDS787 aircraft in my hangar, so I downloaded and installed it into FSX, made sure I got the FDE revision and the panel fix, and gave it a whirl for a novice test flight, having never flown the model before even as a FS2004 aircraft.

Took off from Bremen airfield (active runway) in Germany, 12noon spring (random airfield selection) then looped back for a maiden landing at same runway (into the wind), configured my aircraft from about a 2NM final direct back to the runway, visual approach when the VASI could be seen about a mile and a half, full flaps, half throttle, spoilers extended, airspeed @160kts, any slower and the aircraft would sink and GPWS would give the sink-rate warning. Also the aircraft at slow speeds would become less stable requiring more stick inputs to stay on glideslope and track, 160-170kts seems about right for the 787. With runway in sight and on glideslope the landing gear was extended, aircraft settled into a stable and smooth slightly nose up decent towards the threshold, airspeed stable @160kts passing over the touchdown point, altitude callouts at 500, 100, 50, (time to test my landing skills) smooth landing flare main gear first, and gentle touchdown of nose gear, quickly followed by reverse thrust (via Joystick button) followed by an insulting remark from GPWS calling out "Retard Retard" yes I know it wasn't an insult or negative comment on my landing, which I thought was pretty damn smooth all in all particularly for a first landing in this bird. (just a warning to slow the aircraft or move throttles to idle, (ha ha) different story if I had crashed or fluffed the landing I suppose.

With reversers deployed, spoilers deployed, full flaps, and what look like slats, on the wings leading edge the aircraft slowed rapidly to braking speed well before first turnoff, didn't think to set autobrakes or even check how to set autobrake. Nice smooth rollout a pretty good test, no slamming into the runway or overshoot, pretty stable once configured for landing on a medium to long approach.

All I can say is my first test was good, nothing unusual happened, maybe you are rushing the approach and not stabilizing the aircraft effectively for landing, (this is important) once the aircraft is configured and stable and on the glideslope just ride the elevator down to the threshold (be ready for crosswind and gusting, adjust with throttle and stick) make sure you are landing into the wind (this will help with your "AOA") you will almost certainly be already flared on touchdown for smooth gentle maingear & nose wheel touchdown and smooth rollout. (Greased like a pro).

 

Cheers Jethro

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Ryan - Jethro might be on to something with the checking the sliders. Also, when dealing with freeware downloads, one area I have always checked when having problems, is the "Autopilot" section of the aircraft.cfg file. Here is a copy of my 787-8 settings just so you can have something to compare to your settings. See if anything stands out as "suspicious." You never know what might be the culprit!

 

[autopilot]

autopilot_available=1

flight_director_available=1

default_vertical_speed=1800.000000

autothrottle_available=1

autothrottle_arming_required=1

autothrottle_takeoff_ga=1

autothrottle_max_rpm=90.000000

pitch_takeoff_ga=8.000000

use_no_default_bank=1

use_no_default_pitch=1

default_pitch_mode=0

default_bank_mode=0

max_pitch=10.000000

max_pitch_acceleration=1.000000

max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt=2.000000

max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt=1.500000

max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt_breakpoint=20000.000000

max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt_breakpoint=28000.000000

max_bank=25.000000

max_bank_acceleration=1.800000

max_bank_velocity=3.000000

max_throttle_rate=0.100000

nav_proportional_control=9.000000

nav_integrator_control=0.250000

nav_derivative_control=0.000000

nav_integrator_boundary=2.500000

nav_derivative_boundary=0.000000

gs_proportional_control=9.520000

gs_integrator_control=0.260000

gs_derivative_control=0.000000

gs_integrator_boundary=0.700000

gs_derivative_boundary=0.000000

yaw_damper_gain=0.000000

 

I'll leave this with you. Hope you find what's going on. Like I said, i had same problems with the Boeing

777-300ER, but never the 787! It can be frustrating, that's for sure!

 

Oh, and if you ever need checklists, here is a good source. Your aircraft will be in the Boeing 7E7-800 issue.

http://freechecklists.net/simchecklists.asp

 

Rick :cool:

Edited by Downwind66
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Ryan - Here are some pics I had of an approach I made into Raleigh Durham, NC RWY 5L. I have not touched the yoke at all after disengaging the A/P, APPR and AT. The attitude this aircraft is in, doesn't get any better than this! I had one earlier in the 787, that looking from the outside view, I had to just barely ease a flare to keep the nose wheel off the ground a bit more!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]204197[/ATTACH]

 

Approach DC10

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]204198[/ATTACH]

 

Just above the runway

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]204199[/ATTACH]

 

Touchdown, no help on my part. Nose gently drops down on it's own! Try practicing flying from an outside view, such as how these pics are shown, I think that might help you see what you might be doing? As you can see from these pics, how could I have helped this DC10 any by touching the yoke? I would only have made the approach and landing that much worse off than what I did! Enjoy - Rick

Edited by Downwind66
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@Rick...I think you are on to something here! I tried another TDS787 just for the heck of it and used 155knots as the landing speed and very little flare. I think my nosewheel was about 2 feet off the ground when the main-mounts touched down and they came down shortly thereafter. I guess I was trying to treat it like a 737, which it ain't.

 

787.JPG

 

Touchdown

787-1.JPG

Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer!  ✈️

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Love the TDS 787 and all its liveries. I seem to be able to land it quite well. Of course, the usual applies: Gradually slow the plane with flaps, use the ILS and when runway is in sight at about 2 miles, I hand fly down. Proper flaring and my speed is between 150-160 knots. Spoilers armed. and retard at 20 feet.

That works for me.

 

Stan

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Mr Z - That's what I couldn't understand. Ryan mentioned the 787 and I have never had any problems with a 787, of course, my downloads weren't TDS either. I have 4 787 aircraft and really a breeze to land. The 777's, however, are the ones that acted up on me! And, now, Stan above seems to have his TDS 787 flying without issues.

 

I don't know, it occurred to me when fighting the 777's, if the aircraft is already in a nose up attitude, and close to where you want it to be when the wheels touchdown, why does there have to be a "flare" by the pilot. Just let the aircraft land on it's own then control everything else involved in getting the aircraft slowed down to exit the runway! It has worked great for me on the much larger jetliners. I did try a 787 this morning and I had to help just a little to get the nose up where it belongs, but the nose didn't slam down to the runway after touchdown either!

 

Mr Z, I am reducing airspeed to 155 kias when turning to final with 25* flaps, and then just prior to the drop in the glidescope, I reduce it down to 150 KIAS 30* flaps and that has worked well for me. Checklists say 155 descent, but i tried the 150 and I like that!

 

Thanks for your feedback Mr Z. At least there are more thinking along the lines of what I had suggested to Ryan! Thank you, too, Stan!

 

Rick

Edited by Downwind66
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Ryan - Sorry, I'm trying to tell you everything that I do to make this landing successful, but I keep remembering things! When you have turned to final and just after the glide scope kicks in and you start your descent, you will see the Alt hold light go out, at that time, I usually set a rate of descent at 500' per minute. Many may tell you, that isn't necessary as the glide scope will determine the rate of descent for itself and that is true. I feel better setting it because at 600' you are going to disengage that A/P and APPR, and if my setting the rate of descent to the 500'/min is going to make a difference in making that approach & landing a success, I will do it! At first, you might forget to do it, but after doing it a few times, it becomes automatic for you!

 

Ryan - I've thrown a lot at you. I hope something I mentioned works for you. You did say you enjoy the 787 and you were going to stick with it until you get it right, which is good! It's a nice aircraft for sure, I have 4 variants of the 787 and they all are a pleasure to fly! Anyway, good luck, happy flying!

 

Rick :cool:

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I don't want to be too quick to jump to conclusions, but I tried leaving the auto pilot on, and setting a low descent rate, and the nose wheel stayed up until I lowered it.

 

However, I have had this false hope before, where 2 flights later I am slamming again, so I would like to keep this thread open until I have done a few more test flights and can fairly safely say that it is working.

 

Thanks everyone for your help. :)

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I don't want to be too quick to jump to conclusions, but I tried leaving the auto pilot on, and setting a low descent rate, and the nose wheel stayed up until I lowered it.

 

However, I have had this false hope before, where 2 flights later I am slamming again, so I would like to keep this thread open until I have done a few more test flights and can fairly safely say that it is working.

 

Thanks everyone for your help. :)

 

Still no luck. I am still slamming. :(

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Sorry, turn in your wings.....you're fired!:eek:

 

I had the same problems with the B777-300, I now have 3 777-300's, one wants to act up once in awhile and the other 2 are just as gentle as anyone could ask for! Go figure! I guess every once in awhile a bad one comes along, could happen with payware, could happen with freeware! All my aircraft downloads are freeware, if I come across a bad one, it goes to file 13, and I move on the another freeware download, that simple! No money lost, just a little time in the process of searching for another! I am somewhat picky on what my expectations are, I can't keep pulling my hair out as I lost most of that years ago! Good luck with this particular aircraft! I think you have tried most everything you can think of and what we have offered! Enjoy it for the way it is, or use another of one of your aircraft that works better for you!

 

Rick :cool:

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I had the same problems with the B777-300, I now have 3 777-300's, one wants to act up once in awhile and the other 2 are just as gentle as anyone could ask for! Go figure! I guess every once in awhile a bad one comes along, could happen with payware, could happen with freeware! All my aircraft downloads are freeware, if I come across a bad one, it goes to file 13, and I move on the another freeware download, that simple! No money lost, just a little time in the process of searching for another! I am somewhat picky on what my expectations are, I can't keep pulling my hair out as I lost most of that years ago! Good luck with this particular aircraft! I think you have tried most everything you can think of and what we have offered! Enjoy it for the way it is, or use another of one of your aircraft that works better for you!

 

Rick :cool:

 

I have tried countless downloads for this aircraft, all with the same result. I know it is something I am doing wrong because no one else has ever posted about this problem.

 

I still refuse to give up on this.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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The TDS is intended for FSX, NOT P3D.

 

The CofG calculation is different in each simulator. There is your problem. What works in FSX will not work in your current simulator

 

Hope you know how to amend the FDE in P3D... assuming you don't have access to the core files you will need to amend the aircraft.cfg and/or the .air file.

 

Good Luck.

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The TDS is intended for FSX, NOT P3D.

 

The CofG calculation is different in each simulator. There is your problem. What works in FSX will not work in your current simulator

 

Hope you know how to amend the FDE in P3D... assuming you don't have access to the core files you will need to amend the aircraft.cfg and/or the .air file.

 

Good Luck.

 

I also had this problem when I was using FSX.

 

What would I need to change in the FDE?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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I have tried this before without success, and like I keep saying, no one else has had to do this, which is why I think it is something I am doing wrong.

 

Are you keeping your landing speed around 155 knots and using very little flare? I found that to be the trick in FSX. BTW, if you are who I think you are over at AVSIM asking the same question in FSX, one guy was saying to use an "autoland gauge". Probably would not work if you have the latest version of P3D.

Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer!  ✈️

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Are you keeping your landing speed around 155 knots and using very little flare? I found that to be the trick in FSX. BTW, if you are who I think you are over at AVSIM asking the same question in FSX, one guy was saying to use an "autoland gauge". Probably would not work if you have the latest version of P3D.

 

Yes, it doesn't matter how slow or how little flare, I still slam down.

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Yes, it doesn't matter how slow or how little flare, I still slam down.

 

Well, my last suggestion would be to take Goose's (Topgun) advise and check out the Acme Truck Diving school.

Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer!  ✈️

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Hi Ryan,

 

Would you be prepared to make a couple of short videos of you landing the 787, upload to YT and link them here. Nvidia ShadowPlay is a good simple choice for recording the scenario, seems to work with a minimum of fuss.

vid1) From the cockpit, with a view of your instruments and partial view through the windscreen but mostly on the essential instruments.

Then:-

vid2) From external side on full aircraft level with wing and visibility of runway and so we can see your landing configuration AOA and flare.

 

If you can loc to the ILS we will also see if your approach is within limits. It would also be helpful if you had Shift+Z displayed so we can see your speed & position altitude in relation to your instruments.

It might also be an idea to check that your simrate is set to normal, its not so silly to have sped up your sim and forget you are not landing at a 1:1 ratio, either slower or faster than the plane or user might react on touchdown. Could it be this, worth a check!! I have crashed plenty by playing with the simrate and forgetting I was going 2x or 4x faster than normal.

 

Pilots get your notepads and pencils ready, I'm just an amatur VirtualPilot so my assessment of technique might not be (by-the-book) and my TDS787 is still landing smoothly even with my ad-hock approach, but any forthcoming video should be interesting.

 

Cheers Jethro

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