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Thread: TDS 787 - where am I going wrong?

  1. #1

    Default TDS 787 - where am I going wrong?

    Hi there,

    I have already asked about this a couple of times in other places, but it has been a while.

    I can not land the TDS 787 (all variants) properly. No matter how slow I am going, as soon as the back wheels touch the runway, the nose slams down. I just can NOT flare this aircraft. This has been going on for months now, and it is starting to do my head in.

    So far I have tried:

    • Landing slower,
    • Setting trim
    • Setting flaps
    • Adjusting the CG

    A side note, I have not seen anyone else have to make any adjustments, or even anyone else with this problem, which makes me think I am doing something wrong. So I also wonder about going back to basics, can someone walk me through, step by step, how to land this particular aircraft, because I must be going wrong somewhere.

    I don’t want this thread to disappear until I have completely fixed this.

    Any help is greatly appreciated.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    San Francisco, California
    Posts
    16,960

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    Good luck on your quest. When this aircraft first came out I tried it and was only successful with one landing. After that it gave a "crash" when the main-mounts touched down. Into the trashcan it went.
    Mr Zippy Sent from my keyboard using "Whackamole", NudgeAKey + 2 Fingers

    Emachines T3418 AMD 3400+ processor 2GHZ/256KB L2 Cashe 2Gig Ram 160Gig HDD NVidia GEForce 6100 GPU Running WinXP Home Can't believe it still works! Running FSX Standard with SP1 and SP2

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mrzippy View Post
    Good luck on your quest. When this aircraft first came out I tried it and was only successful with one landing. After that it gave a "crash" when the main-mounts touched down. Into the trashcan it went.
    Thanks, this is probably the best freeware 787 out there, so I refuse to give up on this problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    2,155

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanspringer2294 View Post
    Thanks, this is probably the best freeware 787 out there, so I refuse to give up on this problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    No, Ryan, don't give up just yet. I use FSX and I was surprised when you said you were having problems with the 787. I had the same results with the 777 on landings, I would flare and like you described, felt like a runaway elevator, nose wheel quickly falling to the runway.

    I did some changing of the way I land the larger jetliners and surprisingly, the 777 seems almost normal now. I land all the "big boys" ILS (actually some would call my method a non-precision approach, more accurately called a localizer only approach). I follow the glide scope down and at 600' AGL I will disengage the A/P and the APPR, and then at 500' disengage the AT. This combination seems to set up a nice landing attitude with the larger jetliners. Forgot to mention, about 150KIAS, 30* flaps. I ride this all the way to just above the runway and click the F1 to idle back the engines. No flare what-so-ever, let the back wheels hit the runway and if needed, lightly control the drop with the yoke. I had a few aircraft that the nose was playing hard to get in coming down, and then i just tapped on the brakes once and down it comes! Use your outside views as the aircraft is approaching the runway and you will see what i am talking about! Try this and see if it doesn't work out better for you!

    I can sense that you are at wits end with this aircraft and I was the same way with the 777. Let me know how you make out! Everyone does things differently, if my method doesn't work, someone else will come along and offer their way of doing it!

    Good luck! Rick
    Last edited by Downwind66; 07-24-2018 at 08:16 PM.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Downwind66 View Post
    No, Ryan, don't give up just yet. I use FSX and I was surprised when you said you were having problems with the 787. I had the same results with the 777 on landings, I would flare and like you described, felt like a runaway elevator, nose wheel quickly falling to the runway.

    I did some changing of the way I land the larger jetliners and surprisingly, the 777 seems almost normal now. I land all the "big boys" ILS (actually some would call my method a non-precision approach, more accurately called a localizer only approach). I follow the glide scope down and at 600' AGL I will disengage the A/P and the APPR, and then at 500' disengage the AT. This combination seems to set up a nice landing attitude with the larger jetliners. Forgot to mention, about 150KIAS, 30* flaps. I ride this all the way to just above the runway and click the F1 to idle back the engines. No flare what-so-ever, let the back wheels hit the runway and if needed, lightly control the drop with the yoke. I had a few aircraft that the nose was playing hard to get in coming down, and then i just tapped on the brakes once and down it comes! Use your outside views as the aircraft is approaching the runway and you will see what i am talking about! Try this and see if it doesn't work out better for you!

    I can sense that you are at wits end with this aircraft and I was the same way with the 777. Let me know how you make out! Everyone does things differently, if my method doesn't work, someone else will come along and offer their way of doing it!

    Good luck! Rick
    Unfortunately, no luck with this method, I still slammed down.

    So now I am back to square one.

  6. Default

    Hi ryanspringer 2294,

    I agree with rick, don't giveup, I found this aircraft looked great, flew and landed well on first time attempt. Only thing which might make a difference are your "realism sliders" difficulty, I have mine set to max right, but when I'm learning a new aircraft I put them in the middle or more left so the aircraft is easier to manage.

    I didn't have this TDS787 aircraft in my hangar, so I downloaded and installed it into FSX, made sure I got the FDE revision and the panel fix, and gave it a whirl for a novice test flight, having never flown the model before even as a FS2004 aircraft.
    Took off from Bremen airfield (active runway) in Germany, 12noon spring (random airfield selection) then looped back for a maiden landing at same runway (into the wind), configured my aircraft from about a 2NM final direct back to the runway, visual approach when the VASI could be seen about a mile and a half, full flaps, half throttle, spoilers extended, airspeed @160kts, any slower and the aircraft would sink and GPWS would give the sink-rate warning. Also the aircraft at slow speeds would become less stable requiring more stick inputs to stay on glideslope and track, 160-170kts seems about right for the 787. With runway in sight and on glideslope the landing gear was extended, aircraft settled into a stable and smooth slightly nose up decent towards the threshold, airspeed stable @160kts passing over the touchdown point, altitude callouts at 500, 100, 50, (time to test my landing skills) smooth landing flare main gear first, and gentle touchdown of nose gear, quickly followed by reverse thrust (via Joystick button) followed by an insulting remark from GPWS calling out "Retard Retard" yes I know it wasn't an insult or negative comment on my landing, which I thought was pretty damn smooth all in all particularly for a first landing in this bird. (just a warning to slow the aircraft or move throttles to idle, (ha ha) different story if I had crashed or fluffed the landing I suppose.
    With reversers deployed, spoilers deployed, full flaps, and what look like slats, on the wings leading edge the aircraft slowed rapidly to braking speed well before first turnoff, didn't think to set autobrakes or even check how to set autobrake. Nice smooth rollout a pretty good test, no slamming into the runway or overshoot, pretty stable once configured for landing on a medium to long approach.
    All I can say is my first test was good, nothing unusual happened, maybe you are rushing the approach and not stabilizing the aircraft effectively for landing, (this is important) once the aircraft is configured and stable and on the glideslope just ride the elevator down to the threshold (be ready for crosswind and gusting, adjust with throttle and stick) make sure you are landing into the wind (this will help with your "AOA") you will almost certainly be already flared on touchdown for smooth gentle maingear & nose wheel touchdown and smooth rollout. (Greased like a pro).

    Cheers Jethro

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    2,155

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    Ryan - Jethro might be on to something with the checking the sliders. Also, when dealing with freeware downloads, one area I have always checked when having problems, is the "Autopilot" section of the aircraft.cfg file. Here is a copy of my 787-8 settings just so you can have something to compare to your settings. See if anything stands out as "suspicious." You never know what might be the culprit!

    [autopilot]
    autopilot_available=1
    flight_director_available=1
    default_vertical_speed=1800.000000
    autothrottle_available=1
    autothrottle_arming_required=1
    autothrottle_takeoff_ga=1
    autothrottle_max_rpm=90.000000
    pitch_takeoff_ga=8.000000
    use_no_default_bank=1
    use_no_default_pitch=1
    default_pitch_mode=0
    default_bank_mode=0
    max_pitch=10.000000
    max_pitch_acceleration=1.000000
    max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt=2.000000
    max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt=1.500000
    max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt_breakpoint=20000.000000
    max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt_breakpoint=28000.000000
    max_bank=25.000000
    max_bank_acceleration=1.800000
    max_bank_velocity=3.000000
    max_throttle_rate=0.100000
    nav_proportional_control=9.000000
    nav_integrator_control=0.250000
    nav_derivative_control=0.000000
    nav_integrator_boundary=2.500000
    nav_derivative_boundary=0.000000
    gs_proportional_control=9.520000
    gs_integrator_control=0.260000
    gs_derivative_control=0.000000
    gs_integrator_boundary=0.700000
    gs_derivative_boundary=0.000000
    yaw_damper_gain=0.000000

    I'll leave this with you. Hope you find what's going on. Like I said, i had same problems with the Boeing
    777-300ER, but never the 787! It can be frustrating, that's for sure!

    Oh, and if you ever need checklists, here is a good source. Your aircraft will be in the Boeing 7E7-800 issue.
    http://freechecklists.net/simchecklists.asp

    Rick
    Last edited by Downwind66; 07-25-2018 at 07:25 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    South Florida
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    Ryan - Here are some pics I had of an approach I made into Raleigh Durham, NC RWY 5L. I have not touched the yoke at all after disengaging the A/P, APPR and AT. The attitude this aircraft is in, doesn't get any better than this! I had one earlier in the 787, that looking from the outside view, I had to just barely ease a flare to keep the nose wheel off the ground a bit more!

    Attachment 204197

    Approach DC10



    Attachment 204198

    Just above the runway



    Attachment 204199

    Touchdown, no help on my part. Nose gently drops down on it's own! Try practicing flying from an outside view, such as how these pics are shown, I think that might help you see what you might be doing? As you can see from these pics, how could I have helped this DC10 any by touching the yoke? I would only have made the approach and landing that much worse off than what I did! Enjoy - Rick
    Last edited by Downwind66; 07-25-2018 at 04:45 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    San Francisco, California
    Posts
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    @Rick...I think you are on to something here! I tried another TDS787 just for the heck of it and used 155knots as the landing speed and very little flare. I think my nosewheel was about 2 feet off the ground when the main-mounts touched down and they came down shortly thereafter. I guess I was trying to treat it like a 737, which it ain't.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Touchdown
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mr Zippy Sent from my keyboard using "Whackamole", NudgeAKey + 2 Fingers

    Emachines T3418 AMD 3400+ processor 2GHZ/256KB L2 Cashe 2Gig Ram 160Gig HDD NVidia GEForce 6100 GPU Running WinXP Home Can't believe it still works! Running FSX Standard with SP1 and SP2

  10. Default

    Love the TDS 787 and all its liveries. I seem to be able to land it quite well. Of course, the usual applies: Gradually slow the plane with flaps, use the ILS and when runway is in sight at about 2 miles, I hand fly down. Proper flaring and my speed is between 150-160 knots. Spoilers armed. and retard at 20 feet.
    That works for me.

    Stan

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