TDS 787 - where am I going wrong?

Hi PEPPER321,

Isn't that why you would use trim to get the nose down/level and aircraft configured for cruise.

I like a little nose down trim so that I have some backpressure on the stick, particularly when handflying the aircraft. Autopilot will set the trim as it needs, FSUIPC will disable autopilot modes when Autopilot disconnects depending which control surfaces are selected.

COG, fuel and PAX weight don't really present an issue except at high alt airports short runways and difficult wether conditions.

All aircraft require some trim input, Sim aircraft also require some trim adjustments especially where the last loaded aircraft may still be influencing the current aircraft configuration.

Cheers Jethro

Iv'e tried trim adjustments with or without autopilot - no joy...

I also have the payware GW 787 - plane always maintains the right "attitude" position (no wing contrai, and C o G is correct).

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Iv'e tried trim adjustments with or without autopilot - no joy...

 

I also have the payware GW 787 - plane always maintains the right "attitude" position (no wing contrai, and C o G is correct).

 

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Jethro and PEPPER - If you read my post #16, I have had the same problems with the Boeing 777-300 line as Ryan is having with his 787! I have been thru many freeware downloads of the 777's, transferring most of them to file 13 after not being able to tame these beasts! I currently have 3, 2 fly like they should, when I want them to fly. The 3rd, it will raise it's ugly head once in awhile and give me a fight, but they are all keepers, finally! Bottom line and I am not going to shoot TDS in the foot, but I have never been impressed with any of the TDS models I have downloaded. I tried explaining to Ryan that he may just have to move on to another download, but he said everything he has tried, gives him the same results and he feels it is him and not the plane. Might be, I can't argue that, but how long do you fight this before you move on to something else that will meet your expectations? In my case all 3 birds, started out with issues, kind of like having 3 wild horses that need to be broken! I got 2 of them flying the way they should, took many many hours of tweaking but I did it! That 3rd one, still is fighting and that's why I have kept it, i won't give up, not just yet that is!

I'm not going to offer any more suggestions to Ryan, as I think he is over-whelmed with what doesn't work. Maybe between the two of you, you might be able to convince him to do some landings with his aircraft set to an outside view, say left rear 1/4 looking forward, and just let the plane fly on it's own to touchdown, no help, no flare and then try his way, same outside view! It's hard to do that, thinking the plane will crash! He might be able to see just how high that nose gear gets with him flying?If he has his approach set up and has confidence that the gs_proportional_control (in the Autopilot section of the aircraft.cfg) is set properly, the aircraft will almost land itself. Most freeware downloads come with this setting set at 9.52, BUT, my default 737's are set at 25.0, my default 747 is set to 18.0, so that 9.52 might just be a baseline setting that developers use. This setting will work for most of the aircraft out there, but not all of them! The way I get my freewares set up properly is to fly the ILS approach, see where the aircraft wants to touchdown. If it wants to land short of desired touchdown point, the setting needs to be increased. If the aircraft wants to land beyond the desired touchdown point, the setting needs to be decreased. Just takes a lot of practice landings! Once he can say he has that setting "spot on," then he can move on to the aircraft and/or himself!

Good luck guys, oh and by the way, he is in Sydney Australia, so that puts him 14 hours ahead of my time South Florida, so he is a hard guy to converse with!

Later - Rick :cool:

Well, I have spent the last 4 days trying everything suggested in this thread, and still no luck.

I am still taking any suggestions anyone might have. I am not giving up until this problem is solved.

Well, I have spent the last 4 days trying everything suggested in this thread, and still no luck.

 

I am still taking any suggestions anyone might have. I am not giving up until this problem is solved.

Ryan - You have mallcott, a seasoned veteran at this, saying it is not you, it is your aircraft. He is saying the TDS aircraft was meant for FSX, not in a P3d environment! You obviously don't buy that!

You say it is you, which I would have to somewhat agree with that. I am not discounting what mallcott has brought up. You have people here who want to help. I for one have offered every suggestion that I know of, and only have a couple left. 1) mallcott might have a valid point, do you have any other TDS/FSX aircraft that work fine that might prove his theory to be wrong? 2) If it is you, you have others that have offered help, but want to see a short video clip of what your approaches might look like, maybe they might see something you are missing? See Jethro's and Pepper's comments above! I offered a suggestion for you to land with an external view which might show you what you are doing. I never heard back, so I don't know if you ever did that? 3) If you don't want to work with others in solving your problem, don't ask for the help! 4) You say you are not giving up, and I think that is good up to a certain point! I just had some computer issues, I too said I am not giving up, it took me 5 months to finally find a solution that worked. If you have that kind of time and patience, by all means, go for it! We wish you luck in finding the solution! 5) As a "last resort," give up on the TDS 787 and move on to something that does work! May not mean going to another 787, just might mean moving on to another one of your aircraft that does work for you! Start enjoying the program for what it is!

And with that, I will end this. Just remember, the members on here "willing to help" can't reach thru the computer to see what you are doing, it takes a lot of patience and cooperation on what they are asking or suggesting to you do or to provide them, in giving you sound advice. Bear with them, you are the one that has the problem, time to listen, or you might find yourself on your own with this!

Good luck! Rick :rolleyes:

Hope this helps, I made a short video to show what is happening:

Ryan - That is worse than just the nose slamming to the ground. I found this site this morning, you might want to try one of their TDS downloads, even says ok for P3d !! Also, freeware, no money needed! Another question, why is this aircraft landing in the grass and not on the runway? Something doesn't look right. This almost looks like the plane has stalled? Maybe hitting the F1 too high, creating a stall? Just a thought............... Everything looks good until you pass the roadway, and then the A/C just falls out of the air. What are you inputting to the A/C? The A/C is in a good attitude for landing even without your help, but something happened to cause the drop?

https://www.rikoooo.com/downloads/viewdownload/55/783

Thanks for the video.

Rick :cool:

Ryan - With this video, you are sure to get some input from other members. I for one, had no idea it was this bad, I thought the main gears touched the ground and then the nose slammed to the runway. This is something totally different than that!

What's the saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words!"

Good luck Ryan, maybe now you will get the input/help you are looking for!

Rick

Ryan - That is worse than just the nose slamming to the ground. I found this site this morning, you might want to try one of their TDS downloads, even says ok for P3d !! Also, freeware, no money needed! Another question, why is this aircraft landing in the grass and not on the runway? Something doesn't look right. This almost looks like the plane has stalled? Maybe hitting the F1 too high, creating a stall? Just a thought............... Everything looks good until you pass the roadway, and then the A/C just falls out of the air. What are you inputting to the A/C? The A/C is in a good attitude for landing even without your help, but something happened to cause the drop?

 

https://www.rikoooo.com/downloads/viewdownload/55/783

 

Thanks for the video.

 

Rick :cool:

Sorry about landing on the grass, that was my bad. Regardless, I have the same problem even if I land on the runway. This is the same way I land every other aircraft and I don’t have a problem with any others. I don’t think I am at a stall speed as I am not getting a stall warning.

Any further help is greatly appreciated.

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This is a tail strike.

The first that contacts the ground is the tail. Not the wheels.

It looks like there is a contact point just behind and a bit below the tail.

This is what touches the ground, not the wheels. And it makes the plane crash and flip forward.

From just seeing the video it also looks like you are flying way to slow. You lower the nose a little (stick forward) at the start of the video, and the plane drops a lot. THat is because you are too slow. You are pretty much stalling on touchdown. Fly 15-20 knots faster.

But, your speed is already 173 knots. THat seems to me like it should be enough for a 787.

It is not enough in your addon. To land with the nose further down you would need more speed.

I'll explain why the nose goes up. With the nose high you get more lift then with nose low.

So, you are flying the right speed, but the nose is up, means that the plane is struggling to stay in the air at that speed, and that the nose is going up to squeeze out the last bit of available lift.

You need some way of getting more lift. Without raising the nose and gettting a tailstrike.

The way to do this is to get more flaps area out.

Already at full flaps?

Then go into the aircraft.cfg, and increase the lift coefficient for the flap stages.

(Also take a look at what max flap speeds are shown there. TDS often does not produce that info in the kneeboard, but you can see it here.)

Add soem lift to the flaps. Save. And then test the pitch on landing.

Repeat and adjust more if needed.

Get the pitch correct on landing. You should still have some nose up. But not as much as you had in the video.

May not be needed, but you could also take a look at the rear fuselage/tail contact point.

Look for it, and move it forward and up. To where the hull starts sloping up to the tail.

Position a light effet to find the right position for it. Then use those light coordinates as new coordinates for the contact point.

Ryan - I just looked at the config for my 787-10. Stall speed no flaps is 155, stall speed with full flaps 124, big difference. I would start there, it sure looks like a stall to me. I don't know what your personal technique is, but I would start looking at that! Watch the video again, the plane is dropping out of the sky for some reason!

Rick

Ryan - I just looked at the config for my 787-10. Stall speed no flaps is 155, stall speed with full flaps 124, big difference. I would start there, it sure looks like a stall to me. I don't know what your personal technique is, but I would start looking at that! Watch the video again, the plane is dropping out of the sky for some reason!

 

Rick

Here is what happens with full flaps:

Here is what happens with full flaps:

 

Ryan - That's not good, but, better than what we saw this morning!

Tell me what's going on in the cockpit such as 1) Are you using ILS approach or landing manually?

2) Altitude heights (ILS intercept or a magical number you use for manual landings 3) flap settings, have you verified the flap settings in your aircraft cfg file? Then on the ground, do a rear external view to make sure they are extending the way they are supposed to. My flap settings (type 1, don't mess with the type 2's) on the 787-8 are 0-1-5-10-20-25-30. Believe me, I have seen some strange entries or lack of by some developers and I am sure TDS is not exempt from that list either! Oh, and I make the turn to final with 25* flaps 155 KIAS, then drop airspeed down at a point later to 150 KIAS and just before the bottom drops out at the glide scope intercept and the descent begins, I lower flaps to full flaps 30* You can bump that airspeed up to 155 KIAS, but I wouldn't go any higher than that!

Couple things I do, I try to use the ILS wherever I can. I get my altitudes from Sky Vector for the appropriate airport you are landing at. I set my Nav 1 to the appropriate ILS frequency for that airport.Once the bottom falls out (AP altitude disengages) at your glide scope intercept, I set up a 500'/min descent rate (some say this is a wasted step) and I ride out the glide scope. At 600' AGL, I disengage the AP and APPR, at 500' I disengage the AT. Time to stay focused, ground is quickly coming to you. Oh, do you have Approach callouts downloaded on your aircraft? Those will help! Okay, at 10 - 20' (altitude callouts), I will hit the F1 key to kill any residual throttle you have left in the engines. Now it is just a matter of EASING the yoke back lightly to keep the nose wheel slightly off the runway. When the airspeed drops enough, the nose wheel should drop gently to the runway on it's own!

Okay, my observation of the last video, shows the aircraft coming down at a higher rate of descent than what you want. This is why I like ILS/Localizer only approaches. If you have the ILS settings setup properly, the aircraft and the ILS systems will take care of bringing you in at the proper descent rate. You're probably wondering why I physically set the descent rate on the way down? ILS is going to do it's thing regardless of what I have set, that's why people think that it is a wasted step. BUT, don't forget, at 600' AGL you are disengaging that AP and APPR buttons. If there is any chance of the descent rate working on my landings after I disengage these buttons, I will make sure I set the descent rate! Just me, but it makes me feel better doing it!

One thing to keep in mind Ryan, all altitude calculations in your landings are AGL. If the field elevation of the airport is 435' and you want to disengage the AP and APPR at 600' AGL, you will want to add the 600' to the 435' and the altimeter reading should be the 1035' Some altimeters will give you both values (and i do welcome those for obvious reasons). But, if you only have one altitude available it will be a reading above sea level.

Anyway, that is my method, I am sure many more might chime in and give you something different. Use what works for you! I do like your videos, you did do a good job on those, at least anyone looking at your thread will have an idea of what you have been fighting!

Good luck and happy flying! - Rick :cool:

Ryan - I don't set it until after the glide scope descent begins. The aircraft might be dropping at 1000'/min, but I set the descent rate at 500' for later. If you want to leave it a "0" that's up to you. I set it the way I described and it is fine! Usually, the way that works, once you disengage the AP and APPR and later the AT, the aircraft will continue at the descent it was on before you disengaged all of the buttons!

Descent rates alone do not cause stalls! I can have a 747 descending at 300/min, but I have the plane flying at 170 KIAS! Like I said, my setting the descent rate probably doesn't do a thing. It just makes me feel better doing it! Your descent will keep the airspeed up, as you have the residual power there UNTIL you hit the F1 key just above the runway to kill that residual! Some planes I even land with the power still in, and not cut it off until the wheels are planted!

just another way of doing it!

Why is this giving me so much trouble?

This is the exact way I land every other aircraft, from as small as a DHC6 to as big as an A380, and none of them cause me any problems.

Ryan - You don't have to do it now, but if you're going to find out what you are doing, why don't you tell us your method as i have with mine. Somethings going on, and the video shows that. That bird is coming down way too fast and you don't have enough time for any flare. Lowering the rate of descent, will make the aircraft come down to the runway at a much shallow'r angle which affords you plenty of time to do your thing!

Ryan, what airport are you using for your videos, I can put that into my FSX and I can tell you how I flew it and then you can compare what you are doing on yours! Also what runway at what airport. Major town as I am not familiar with Sydney, Australia!

A while back I sent you a copy of my autopilot section of the aircraft.cfg file for my 787-8. Did you ever compare it to yours?

Rick

Here is my 787-8 approaching Kingsford Smith Intl (YSSY) 34L

[ATTACH=CONFIG]204467[/ATTACH]

This is the attitude I'd like to get your aircraft coming in!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]204468[/ATTACH]

Nice touchdown, very little effort

[ATTACH=CONFIG]204469[/ATTACH]

Have arrived, "your neck of the woods!" Nice airport!

Here's the panel setup on the approach

[ATTACH=CONFIG]204471[/ATTACH]

This runway should look familar to you!

All of my testing of this aircraft actually takes place at KPAE. I reduce the throttle to idle as I cross the runway threshold and flare slightly, which is how I land every other aircraft, and I only have a problem with the 787.

And yes, YSSY is my home airport, but I use the YSSY scenery from FlyTampa.

Hi Ryan,

You're in good hands with Downwind66, he has some good pointers. I am at the moment looking at your video landings and trying to replicate the same in FSX, I have a few additional ideas but will need a little time to get my ideas together. (Will post soon)

In the meantime, I notice that you like to land heavy with a higher than normal decent rate, by comparison to your forward momentum and flare angle, this heavy landing is compounded by the near capacity fuel load (98%) (normally a plane would have burned through a large proportion of fuel by the time it arrived at the destination airport and land lighter than takeoff weight) and most likely a fully booked flight where passenger numbers = all bums on seats. You might try less passengers 50% and fuel 35-40% to see if you can land light. The other things which are essential are Full Flaps, spoilers activated, smooth decent rate @ 140-150 kts with the power on throttles, no more than 10deg flare on touchdown.

170kts is way too fast and your decent rate is getting you into trouble on touchdown, having no flaps or spoilers engaged is also setting you up for an unstable approach. The slower landing video showing 125kts is too slow, any mistake in pitch angle will put you into a stall and have you chasing the plane to the touchdown point (the plane will just drop out of the sky).

In the first vid (HTDA - Dar Es Salaam airport rwy 05 approach) @170kts you landed off runway and long by about 500-600 meters (mid runway), there was also a 45deg crosswind from the left. I have tried to replicate this but could not achieve the disastrous landing shown in (vid 1) If a pilot were to bounce heavily on touchdown off centerline and long like this in RealWorld it would be an automatic throttleup pull back yoke retract spoiler and go-around.

The other thing you will notice about the TDS 787 is the GPWS system, an audible alert system indicating proper landing config (Flap condition, glideslope, terrain warnings, altitude callouts on approach, are you hearing any of these callouts as you descend towards the threshold. They are a good indicator of wether you are on the numbers and stable for landing.

I also have some ideas about your scenery settings and baro adjustment, as I have tried to simulate your landings where the aircraft slams into the ground using the setups displayed in your videos, everything from steep decent, fully loaded planes fuel/PAX, to slow speed stall and fast landings, Flaps no flaps, spoilers no spoilers, tail strike & nosewheel first, I cannot get a slam or make my plane sink into the dirt or tarmac. I do however have crash turned off (permanently)

All of my testing of this aircraft actually takes place at KPAE. I reduce the throttle to idle as I cross the runway threshold and flare slightly, which is how I land every other aircraft, and I only have a problem with the 787.

 

And yes, YSSY is my home airport, but I use the YSSY scenery from FlyTampa.

Good morning Ryan, at least from here in the States. Any luck yet? Also, you say you test your aircraft from KPAE, Paine field, just north of Seattle, Washington, here in the States?

Where were the videos taken from, which airport?

Good morning Ryan, at least from here in the States. Any luck yet? Also, you say you test your aircraft from KPAE, Paine field, just north of Seattle, Washington, here in the States?

 

Where were the videos taken from, which airport?

Good evening (here in Australia)

Unfortunately, still no luck. The first video is from HTDA, and the second is from KPAE. I think the flaps have made a slight difference, but not enough. :(

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