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Fire fighting foam.


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I worked a Manchester EGCC for over 33 yrs, I remember the day the Airtours caught fire:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33304675

 

After this it got me thinking and I submitted an idea to management, this was passed on to the fire brigade chief at the time.

My idea was to have foam storage tanks placed underground along the runway, and if and when an aircraft was in a similar situation where ever it stopped the fire station could trigger jets to spray the aircraft with foam.

This was the flames could be put out quick before the actual fire engines go to the scene, thus possibly saving lives, the airport management thought this was a good idea but the fire chief said it wouldn't work because foam can't be stored underground.

 

Now bare in mind this was over 30 years ago and I often wonder if this would work today with the advance of things since then, I also wonder if one day this will be done and someone else will get the credit for my idea, I could just see the headline in the news, "Retired fire chief has revolutionary idea,"

 

Any way, if you ever hear of it being done remember it was me that thought of it first lol.

 

Col.

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I work on the ramp at Manchester, if they ever do it, I'll let you know.

 

I agree, yours is actually a pretty good idea, but I suspect for the amount of times such a system might prove useful compared to the cost of installing such a system which would (hopefully) sit there redundant, covering two runways which are two miles long each, would be regarded as not worth the investment even at Manchester where the runways are of course parallel and adjacent for much of their length.

 

Of course like most aeroplane accidents, the changes implemented, or at least recommended to be made following them - grimly known as 'tombstone technology' in the industry - will in the case of that accident at Manchester, make aeroplane fires somewhat more survivable. But given that one of the recommendations was to make as much stuff flame resistant as possible, yet we saw Grenfell Tower go up like a roman candle last year in the UK because it was clad in flammable material, you do sometimes wonder if such lessons are always heeded as much as they really ought to be, particularly in the wider world.

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Thanks Choc,

Yes you are probably right, it would cost too much to install plus as you say it might and hopefully never get used.

 

On a side issue what company do you work for?

When I was on the ramp I worked for the airport itself, this was before Monopoly and Mergers came in, we did every aircraft that came in except the Guppy which had British Aerospace guys doing the onload.

After that I re-deployed and stayed with MAPLC and went working in Terminal Control then took early retirement.

When in Terminal Control I often missed the ramp but as you know we don't often get good weather and sometimes especially in the winter I was glad to be working indoors.

 

Col.

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I know foam is used to put out plane fires, but I could have sworn they also have fire hydrants near and around taxiways and runways. Because I thought they had those, I added them to my Area-51 project.

 

I was thinking the water goes into the fire truck and is mixed with a chemical to make foam.

 

Edit-

 

Instead of burying foam tanks, why not pipe it in? I don't understand why foam can't be buried.

 

With a tank approach. You could have a tank that is foam chemical and a tank that is water. When needed, both are used and as it sprays is combined.

 

 

 

OTjm0iP.jpg

 

 

Or you could just have foam chemical tanks and pipe water in.

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I work for Aviator, which services Thomas Cook, Norwegian, Balkan Air and SAS, so it's mostly A330s, A321s and B737-600s, but occasionally we do CRJ 1000s, A318/9/20s and on rare occasions A340s and B757s. We are apparently going to also be servicing Turkish Airlines soon and there are other rumours flying about concerning other changes, as there always are between the various service agent companies at Manchester.

 

On the A330s, it's primarily AKE ULD cans with a small bit of loose baggage up in the rear hold, all the other aircraft take individually loaded bags with the odd bit of cargo every once in a while. Some of the A321s, especially the old ex-Monarch ones which wear a temporary livery that Thomas Cook applied when leased from Avion Express, are equipped for cans, which makes the floors in the cargo holds troublesome for sliding bags along them because of the plating over the lugs for the cans which snags on the bags all the time, the stops in the doorways of the cargo holds also catch on things a lot too. I'm sure you will be familiar with that issue and how annoying it can be. The SAS and Norwegian 737-600s on the other hand have powered sliding rubber conveyor belt floors in the rear cargo holds which makes loading those easy, apart from when you smash your head on the ceiling of the hold, as I'm sure you know the 737's holds are not exactly spacious height-wise.

 

The vast majority of our flights operate from Pier C, which is where Aviator's crew room is (more or less between stand 29 and stand 26), but occasionally we work on the other piers, or on the remote stands over where the cargo bit is. I'm just off there in about five minutes or so to work a night shift from 10pm through to 06.30pm. Hopefully it will be quiet tonight, it was mad busy last night, barely even got a break!

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@Chock,

Wow I never knew about the powered sliding conveyor on the 737-600s floor, I understand about the bags catching on the rollers etc on the other aircraft, that must be a pain.

As for switching airlines when I worked the ramp we did them all but as I said things changed and they brought in handling agents to compete for the work, after that they swapped about all the time changing from one to the other, all to save money of course.

When I first went in Terminal control it was a dingy office by the T1 ground floor check-in, then a few months before I retired we got moved in to the 6th floor tower overlooking the apron and the runways, it was a fantastic view, before that the only apron we saw was on cameras.

On the screenshot forum I have told a few stories from the old days you might be interested in.

 

Col.

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I thought the basic principle of fire-fighting foam was to smother the fire by covering the conflagration and the fuel to prevent oxygen from reaching the source?

Pray explain how attacking a fire from beneath smothers the oxygen? Or how the nozzles can be adjusted to attack the seat of the fire if it's in the nose of the aircraft, the tail, or one of the engines off to one side?

 

Even the latest Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier - which carries only 670 crew - dedicates many of those to fire fighting. And that deck HAS an `underfloor` spray system.

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@mallcott,

When I first made the suggestion years ago, I supplied a rough drawing, the tanks would be stored underground piped to jets of around 2 foot off the ground pointing upwards aimed at the aircraft on both sides of the runway, and remember these would be a spray not a thin line of foam.

Bur pray don't worry yourself anymore because it's already been said it would not be feasible and cost too much.

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Apart from maybe costing too much, what about the basics? Would it be necessary to heat those tanks in winter beause the mixture could freeze or at least change its volume? Are those chemicals aggressive, would you have to check all jets, joints, pumps and pipes perodically for defects? Do you have to stir the chemicals occasionally because they would otherwise clog up? In recent years it has been discovered that fire retardant used on airports has entered the underground water bodies, poisoning the drinking water supply with "PFC", Perfluorinated Compounds. So it would be of high importance to prevent leakage of any kind.
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@mallcott,

When I first made the suggestion years ago, I supplied a rough drawing, the tanks would be stored underground piped to jets of around 2 foot off the ground pointing upwards aimed at the aircraft on both sides of the runway, and remember these would be a spray not a thin line of foam.

Bur pray don't worry yourself anymore because it's already been said it would not be feasible and cost too much.

 

As someone who spent several years decontaminating airports from oils and hydraulic fluids that were in underground storage/separator tanks that were already in situ for legal compliance purposes, I wonder where you planned to put those tanks?

The underneath of a modern airport is a rabbit warren of access tunnels, electricity and data cables, fuel and waste storage tanks. Dont letthe expanse of grass fool you.

Given the absence of space, and the uncertainty of the location of a crashed or fire-damaged airplane, it makes considerably more sense to take the foam to the aircraft in a truck, and spray it onto the fire from above.

 

Nice idea in principle, but not in fact.

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