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Thread: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?

  1. #11

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    In LittleNavMap you (very) simply enter the navaid ID in the search box, Navaid tab, and double-click.... FYI

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinstebbing View Post
    OK, progress: the simple reason I couldn't see the transitions or vias is that I stupidly wasn't looking far enough out - they are much further away from the airports than I imagined. They do show on LittleNavMap (I located them first on good old FS Navigator for FS9!). I think (?), with that sorted so simply, I should be good to go!!
    Martin,

    I'm glad you found what you're looking for.

    but as I still can't locate (on the map) any of the transition or via points I am offered
    From this statement, it still appears to me that you are thinking of "VIA" as a separate procedure, rather than just wording incorporated into a procedure, though perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

    Perhaps it would help (maybe this is already clear to you) to recognize that each TRANSITION is a path that ultimately leads to the point for which the STAR is named, and from there it points to a spot where an instrument approach may be made to the airport. Each transition begins in a different place. And in the real world, you don't pick a STAR -- ATC gives you a clearance that includes a STAR and which TRANSITION, and you may accept or reject the clearance. But ATC chooses the TRANSITION based on where you are coming from, as well as what wind, weather and traffic are doing at the moment.

    So perhaps the sim or your FMC might be confusing you a bit. Still, it's good that you found what you need at this point.

    Since I don't know what you really have available to you in the way your sim/add-ons are configured, I thought I'd show you a STAR page from real world operations -- Orlando's GOOFY FIVE ARRIVAL is shown below, with its three TRANSITIONS, and including information for nearby airports other than Orlando International. Do note that the chart says it is not to scale.
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    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  3. #13

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    Thanks again for this.

    Yes, I may have some 'wrong' ideas in my head about aspects of this.

    Perhaps, as an example of the use of the 'via'.. If you have a choice of three or four in the FMC, how would you go about choosing the most appropriate? The ones I have been offered seem to be, in essence, waypoints, but quite a way away from my programmed route+STAR, so I usually opt for 'No Via'. I think I need to keep programming flight plans into the a319 FMC and comparing with the LittleNavMap information and map page (or vice versa) to work things out.

    I am still a bit nonplussed as to why the SIDs and STARs themselves can be so oddly formed though! For instance, flying into Mumba VABB Rwy 27 from the south-east, I chose STAR MOLG1A. This seems a very unwieldy path (like the one I posted a few days ago), with its 'dog-leg' sudden change of direction. It goes to MB372, then MB394, after which there's a sharp turn east to get to MB395 and then some 150 degs back again, leading to a 'manual' section, north of the airport. I don't understand these odd twists and turns. They aren't usually governed by terrain considerations.

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    I think you are right that even a very well-modelled FMC is not going to be able to interact with ATC in a totally realistic way, due to the limitations of the ATC programmes for the most part. The more I fly this a319 (and it's the first a/c I have flown in 20 years that models all this so comprehensively (hence my incentive to do it justice!). I am sure after a while, it will all fall into place!
    Last edited by martinstebbing; 04-22-2018 at 08:56 AM.

  4. #14

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    Have a look here at the yellowstone one SID. https://flightaware.com/resources/ai...ELLOWSTONE+ONE


    Now depending on where you are going you have several transitions to chose from. Say I want to go to Chicago to the east. I would then chose the Cheyenne transition and then from there I'd turn right to HANKI and continue on with my route. CYS is my transition.

    Looking at the sectional here:

    https://i.imgur.com/R8BDQUW.jpg

    You can see where to go and create your route after that transition. So after HANKI I would be on J148. From there there's a VOR I connect with called O'Neill or ONL.

    So thus far my flight plan looks like this: YELLO1.HANKI.J148.ONL... etc...

    You can use this site to look at charts. https://skyvector.com/
    Last edited by CRJ_simpilot; 04-22-2018 at 10:37 AM.
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  5. #15

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    I could take the HANKI transition for a more direct route east instead of going north to Cheyenne.

    You can use this to plot your route and see what you are going over visually. http://mapper.acme.com
    Last edited by CRJ_simpilot; 04-22-2018 at 10:36 AM.
    My forum project. Click me
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    Pick an Amazon wish list, help a child out
    From RLG, Fly heading 053, intercept 315 DVV, look for the orange glow of a SAM.

  6. #16
    Join Date
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    Have a look here at the yellowstone one SID.
    He's primarily concerned with STARS, which are a different kettle of fish.

    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  7. #17

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    He's primarily concerned with STARS, which are a different kettle of fish.
    True, the SIDs aren't a problem on the whole, but it is still useful to read the stuff CRJ linked to.

    LittleNavMap does pretty much everything I need (I use it in association with SimBrief).. but quite frequently the number of usable SIDs or STARs are relatively few. LittleNavMap brings up a visual image of the path as soon as you click on the SID or STAR - most are obviously not appropriate for the incoming flight path. The one for Mumbai VABB which I posted is the best of the few options available when flying up from the south-east (VOHS here), but having flown the route since I last posted, I am even more amazed at the 'detour' to MB395, which is at some of the highest terrain in the region (northern end of the Western Ghats mountain range). Why (I ask partly rhetorically, as I guess no one on the forum would know, unless he/she is part of the FAA or whatever) is MB395 included in the STAR? Having flown the route, as I say, missing out that point would give an easier approach, in my humble (but doubtless misguided!) opinion.

    Well, the good thing is that I have quickly changed from regarding SIDs, STARs and Transitions as a complication I can avoid (and did) simply by flying to the runway's 'LOC/GS point' and engaging the APPR mode, to something that is actually an enjoyable part of the pre-flight programming (which now take some ten times as long as before, but that's all good!).

    Thanks as ever to folks for taking time to reply.

    Martin
    Last edited by martinstebbing; 04-22-2018 at 11:52 AM.

  8. #18
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    I don't understand these odd twists and turns. They aren't usually governed by terrain considerations.
    Not being familiar with the aviation aspects in India, I can only speculate that airspace (including restricted areas), instrument approach layouts, traffic patterns they wish to maintain, and similar things may have an effect.

    Not being familiar with your nav program (I'd never heard of it until your post), I am presuming the pictures you are posting are screenshots of your program (they look like some of that in the manual). And since the manual says that when using the downloaded nav data that the program may ignore differences between the sim and the downloaded date, perhaps you are seeing a mismatch, unless you also have the chart/description of the STAR in question at hand and the same thing is depicted there.

    Keep in mind that the sim data goes back to around 2005, while your nav data may reflect the current real world, in which case there could be lots of incompatible changes.

    Larry N.

    As Skylab would say:
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  9. #19
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    Without having the actual charts to look at, selecting appropriate SIDs and STARs is a bit like Pin the Tail on the Donkey. Choosing from a list of waypoints without seeing them on a map is challenging at best.

    The route map that you posted simply does not provide enough info, all it shows is a selected route.

    One question, where did this "manual" waypoint come from, is that something you added?
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    At a glance, that route does seem confusing until you look at the actual approach plate...
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    Here you can plainly see how traffic would flow depending on the active runway and that for 27 you would leave MB395 on a 360 heading and not turn straight for the airport as shown in your route pic. At this point (if not before) you would most likely receive vectors to final, you are done with the STAR.

    As to why this STAR is set up the way that it is? Who knows? Terrain avoidance, noise abatement, traffic sequencing, any number of considerations could have gone into the design.

    Note that controllers may have the option to deviate from the STAR at their discretion. You may, for example, be told to proceed north from MB394 and eliminate some 25 miles of flying provided you can safely fly that heading. As is, it seems to me that the STAR will set you up for a loooong final. Maybe that is needed for the traffic volume into Mumbai.

    BTW, is it a coincidence that your route takes you almost directly over the SC NDB, which happens to be the LOM for the 27 ILS?
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    DISCLAIMER- the charts I used are not current and were found, via a Google search, on a virtual airline website

    peace,
    the Bean
    WWOD---What Would Opa Do? Farewell, my freind (sp)

    Never argue with idiots.
    They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

  10. #20

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    All screenshots from LittleNavMap. not the manual.
    BTW, is it a coincidence that your route takes you almost directly over the SC NDB, which happens to be the LOM for the 27 ILS?
    Yes, it is.
    where did this "manual" waypoint come from, is that something you added?
    No, it is generated by LittleNavMap along with the STAR. From what I have been told on X-Plane forums, this is perfectly normal.

    To be honest, I think all this is starting to swim around in my head rather: I should leave it a while and come back to it. Perfect timing really as I am going abroad on holiday for two weeks in a couple of days time. I'll have a fresh look when I get home again.

    Thanks.

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